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June 06, 2008

Comments

It never ceases to amaze me that people watch Jerry Springer. Further still, people buy Jerry Springer's videos by the thousands.

This immediately felt like Jerry Springer to me.

Certainly God isn't glorified by kicking someone in the face with your army boot.

My spirit is grieved.

It sickened me to watch this clip. This is the sort of thing that gives Christianity and Christians a bad name. No wonder people think we're nuts.

"It never ceases to amaze me that people watch Jerry Springer. Further still, people buy Jerry Springer's videos by the thousands."

It is odd that some of the most immature television shows carry the label of adult entertainment. I should think that "adult entertainment" would feature responsible and socially appropriate behavior as its central theme. Now, that's what _I_ call adult entertainment.

The Florida revivalists claim that the number of people raised from the dead is in the teens, including a 3 year old girl. I wonder if any unbiased organization is investigating these claims.

I suspect that Christian journalists don’t want to embarass their Christian brothers; or they think that correction should be done in private. And maybe we need to do some thinking about this. But these revivals and their wild claims are being done in public and it seems reasonable to call them on it in public.

There's a lot of good info on this man and his "ministry" at this blog. I encourage you to check it out.

Hank Hanegraaf brings up a good point, that healings for things such as asthma, bad backs, or migraines can be easily duplicated by a hypnotist. Until we see limbs regrown, eyeballs replaced, or people raised from the dead, all "healing" at these kind of "crusades" is suspect and likely a result of mass suggestion.

Hey, I didn't know Typepad let you create HTML hyperlinks. Lemme try:

test

Cool, it works. Now no more worrying about line breaks for long URLs! Thanks Stephen.

Louis is right! You know, we want to hold Rev. Wright publicly accountable for his sermons from his pulpit. If we want that, then someone in Christianity should speak out publicly and correct this Lakeland group as well. We get into so much trouble because we lay low in the name of kindness or good manners. It just dishonors the name of Christ and Christianity when we do that.
And Melinda, a most excellent writing. I am going to copy this into my archives so I can remind myself to hold on to the good things and honor the Word when the fads come around.
While I am charismatic and desire all those gifts to be in the church, all this nonsense is just unbiblical.
God doesn't want people knocked out and beaten up in His name. Not just because a guy in a pulpit with a microphone says he had faith to do it, or that God told him to.
One thing that seems to be missing from most movements like this is the Gospel message. It isn't preached. It isn't given preeminence. It isn't what the believers are seeking out. These movements stir up the desire for more of the Spirit but they don't seem to include the Gospel message. Remember when Paul said if anyone comes preaching another gospel, even an angel... God definitely doesn't want us to exalt angels and that seems to be very much what this movement is doing. That alone should be enough to raise a red flag in this movement. As soon as a guy starts talking about his angel and his angel telling him what to do and naming his angel, that should cause us to rebuke the guy right there.
Oh, and no one in that audience wanted to stand up to him and tell him that all this violence he was doing to others was of the devil. They were either into it or too polite. They should have run out of there, got their money back and ran to the nearest church with sound doctrine and repented of hanging out with sorcerers.

Peter Popoff meets Rodney Howard Brown, and PT Barnum once again proves prophetic !

I Love STR and the service they provide to the Kingdom of God.
However I can’t understand why people are so against to the meetings in Florida. I understand that they may seem a little weird but the whole ideas of miracle are a little abnormal. Besides who define what weird is? Jesus and the apostles were even hated, I’m sure there claims were weird in the eyes of some?
I am from El Paso, TX and a month ago went to check out what was going on in Lakeland, FL. Personally I’m not a fan of Todd Bentley but I am a fan of The Holy Spirit. So we went to see if this thing was for real. I am a skeptic so I went in with a lot of questions; however I still wanted to be open to the Lord. I was there for three nights: there was very little preaching. However, the (authentic) Gospel was presented several times. People were touched. No certain ministry was highlighted just the emphasis of what God was doing. There was also a lot of worship, which seemed to be very genuine. Sure there were some strange people there but there were a lot of "normal" people getting touched as well. It’s easy for people to judge from the little tidbits they hear or see but if you want to make an accurate Judgment then go spend a few nights in Lakeland.
I’m sure Todd doesn’t have all his doctrine perfectly aligned but I’m also pretty sure non of us do.
There are a few things I am certain of: Scripture is full of people encountering God and the supernatural and God doesn’t change. If Jesus is the same today then why are we automatically opposed to the claims of the things he did 2,000 years ago? The reality is that maybe miracles should be normal if we are really being like Jesus! The statement was made that the church has been fine for 2,000 years. If that’s the case then why is the world in the shape it is in?

"Jesus and the apostles were even hated"

Being hated isn't the defining mark of a biblical message.

"Personally I’m not a fan of Todd Bentley but I am a fan of The Holy Spirit."

That is the whole question. Is Todd's message of the Spirit? Looking at the content in contrast with Scripture, I'd lean towards the negative. That doesn't mean there are not Christians involved, but Christian involvement doesn't mean the message is Christian... or biblical.

Josh I appreciate your perspective, and the fact that you have actually attended some of the shows in Florida. I question the "healings" that are going on at these shows. Almost 100% of the time the healings at these types of shows are unable to be verified. They usually deal with pain or vision or hearing and are accompanied by lots of shouting and gyrations from the headline entertainer - in this case Bentley. I'll believe the healing when I see a video of one of the contestants born without an arm or leg and suddenly the missing appendage appears. I want un-retouched video from all angles. Until then, what is happening in Florida is a charade. That's right, a total fraud. Yes, God can and does heal in this age, but he does not need a circus atmosphere in which to do so.

But who is it who decided that the environment is a circus? You need just as much to prove that something is a fraud and no evidence has shown that it is a false move of God? Even if Todd is off base on doctrine doesn't mean that the miracles are a fraud. Many of the miracles have been verified by doctors.

I wasn't saying being hated validated this ministry I was simply pointing out that Jesus and his followers were ridiculed because of the message and the methods.

From what I have witnessed the meetings have been of the spirit.
I have seen nothing anti-biblical about the meetings. In fact they seem to be more biblical than most churches I've seen.

Again, before you make a stand against an alleged move of God maybe you should check it out before you speak against it. Thats why we went out there to begin with.

A man claiming to be a preacher who kicks someone as part of a healing is a circus act. None of the so-called miracles have been medically verified. If they have, please provide detailed information of specific instances, including contact info for the physicians. Absent contact info for the doctors I reiterate this is a fraud. It will go the way of the Toronto blessing and be a memory within a few years.

Contact ignited church in Lakeland and they can give you that info. could you give proof of Todd kicking somebody?

"Even if Todd is off base on doctrine doesn't mean that..."

Wouldn't that qualifier be a show stopper regardless of the end of that sentence? Or, shouldn't that opening count as evidence for the latter portion?

Josh,

Did you watch the video?

Josh you must not have watched the video with Bentley's comments about the kick. I also doubt whether you have ever been to one of his services. I'll say it again loud and clear - this man is a circus act, a fraud, and his behavior is an abomination to God. That's my final post on this topic.

Oh ye of little faith.

Guys, this guy caused a deaf man to hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdMlnlFQvcg

There's actually lots of miracle videos on youtube. Funny how Christians don't believe these videos, yet they'll believe that Jesus cured the blind man, with only paper as evidence.

Actually I was there 3 days in may...I have documentation because some may need to see it.

I want to add that Todd is not perfect and I'm sure like all of us, neither is his doctrine. So if His life and doctrine keeps God from qualifying him to obey scripture, then none of us should be debating the topic or doing anything for God. Jesus commissioned us to heal the sick(Mark 16:18)

I want to also state that Todd is rarely preaching a sermon(except to preach the Gospel) at these meetings. He stands up encourages for a few minutes, gives a couple of Words of Knowledge, then starts interviewing people who received a touch from God.

"But who is it who decided that the environment is a circus? You need just as much to prove that something is a fraud and no evidence has shown that it is a false move of God? Even if Todd is off base on doctrine doesn't mean that the miracles are a fraud. Many of the miracles have been verified by doctors."

I have no doubt that miracles are a real possibility, but I have serious questions of alleged miracles that are in direct oppositions to the ideals thought in the bible.

! Corinthians 13
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

If the healing miracle is an expression of God's love, how is it that that love has become rude and unkind through an expression of violence in direct opposition to the above passage? For me, the verdict is obvious and clear. This thing that is demonstrated in the video is a vile perversion of God's love.

>>”But who is it who decided that the environment is a circus?”

Me too. I’d like to weigh in that it is indeed a circus. But at least a circus is fun for the kids.

Paul had (at least) two things to say about such ministries:

1. If Christ was preached (for right or wrong reasons) he rejoiced.

2. If truth was compromised, he attacked the false doctrines directly.

I think we should (at least) do the same.

"1. If Christ was preached (for right or wrong reasons) he rejoiced."

This is a point to consider. It seems to me that what is being preached is that violence results in healings. Is that the example that was set by Christ in His ministry as the great physician(i.e.healer)? Can anyone here think of one example where Jesus used violence to that particular end? How is Jesus being preached by moving further and further away from the methods he employed in this particular part of his ministry?
How does this kind of thing honor the Christ of the New Testament?
To come up with our own methods and claiming them to be superior to that of Christ, hardly honors Christ. In contrast, it actually implies that His methods were inadequate (huh?) and that we have come up with a better way. Really? I find that rather hard to swallow and I think that many of you have the same problem.

Thanks so much! Amen and amen!

Say hi to Steve for me :) I met him in the pro life movement at UCLA.

Meanwhile, go to: http://www.adventuresinchristianity.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=3494

It is written by my dear friend, Justin Peters. Justin is considered by some to be an expert on the Word of Faith movement... Please see his site http://www.justinpeters.org and be sure to watch the "demo." It was a presentation of an overview of his seminar on the Word of Faith movement given at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Justin has cerebral palsy and concurs with the apostle Paul, "My grace is sufficient for thee."

If you can, show Greg and Steve.

Its so great to be on this site!

Caron

a wolf in sheeps clothing springs to mind but when did a sheep ever kick someone in the face he can't even pretend te o ba sheep why do people follow him or is this the great fulling away

if he's of with his docterine he souldn't be preaching to people

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