New Movements: WWJD?

I have to say that my initial posture toward the Lakeland, FL revival is skepticism.  That's not to say I couldn't be persuaded, but it would take time and I think skepticism is the guidance the Bible gives us.  We are to test the spirits.  We know that there were false prophets, some even performed miracles but not in the Holy Spirit's power.  The New Testament tells us there are counterfeit miracles.  We must judge someone's claims very carefully.

I think there are two criteria, and Greg described these in some detail on the radio show Sunday.  What is the long term fruit that remains, and WWJD?  Since the claims and the miracles could be false, it seems what we're left with is to evaluate the fruit and that takes time.  It takes time to see what fruit results and what fruit remains after some time.  And it's not just the supernatural fruit that matters.  If the Spirit is moving He changes lives and it's the changed lives we look at as the fruit.

And since even miracles can be counterfeit and claims can be false, I think we are left to comparisons to what we find in Scripture.  Miracles were astounding and Pentecost was pretty weird, but they don't really seem to be in the same category of outrageous claims being made by Todd Bentley.  Can you picture Jesus kicking an old lady in the face?  Or Paul tackling a man and shaking him?  It's not quite equivalent to Jesus spitting in the dirt and applying mud.  I admit that this is a somewhat subjective, but we do have accounts of the Spirit moving in the Bible and I think it's fair to judge new claims in comparison. 

Is this a revival of the Holy Spirit in Lakeland, FL?  I don't know.  We'll see.  In the meantime we should be cautiously watchful and see what happens over time.  The burden of proof is on the one making the claim and the rest of us should be of the character of the Bereans, judging it by Scripture.

Comments

[Francis Beckwith]

I have never been a big fan of the WWJD mantra.

After all, there are many things Jesus would not do that are perfectly acceptable for others to do: get married, have children, etc.

On the other hand, there are many things Jesus did that I should not do: claim to be God, believe I was Virgin born, give my disciples the power to forgive sins, etc.

Then there are those on our left who offer a variation on this. They say things like, "Jesus didn't condemn homosexuality, and thus we should not." (Reply: Jesus didn't condemn necrophilia, say that only those behaviors explicitly condemned by Jesus are forbidden, or assert that the sum total of Christian virtue and sexual morality are found exclusively in the red letter portions of our Bibles).

Having said all that, I think we should always look first to Christ and his words on how we should conduct our lives.

[Louis Kuhelj]

The picture is often worth a thousand words. The link to "Lakeland Revival Attracting National Attention" shows a picture of a woman being helped to walk and not really walking on her own. If we look at the characteristics of the New Testament miracles, we find that they were instantaneous and fully effective. When a man was healed from blindness from birth, it was the case that at one moment he was fully bind and the next it was as if he had never been blind at all. He needed no assistance to get around anymore. This was the nature of the miracles described in the new testament. It was not the case of ""It still hurts," he told Bentley. Not as much, he added." as is described in this piece about Lakeland. Genuine healing miracles are instantaneous and full healings. I see evidence that shows Lakeland miracles not to follow this pattern and this is why I would be highly suspicious of them and think that all are well advised to exercise caution in this particular example.

[Kyle]

Where do we ever see the Holy Spirit working in a way that isn't testifying to our Lord Jesus?

Remember that Bentley has said: "It’s not about believing in Jesus. Everybody already does that", Todd Bentley says. "It’s believing in the angels that matters".

I cant see the Holy Spirit moving us away from Christ!

We do not need to wait and see if this is or is not a revival!

John 15:26:

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will BEAR WITNESS about me.

[Brad B]

Hi Francis, what would you think of the "mantra" What Would Jesus Think[WWJT]? It would follow for rational moral beings that as the mind is renewed, the actions would be consistent to the thoughts. "Be ye transformed the renewing of your mind". [Rom 12] If someone is going to ask himself WWJD to make a decision on his actions, the more he thinks like Christ, the more he'd be able to answer the quesiton accurately.

You couldn't even know what Jesus would do if you didin't have some knowledge of the mind of Christ. Growth in knowledge, true knowledge is said to lead to maturity[see Eph 4:12-13. "And He gave some {as} apostles, and some {as} prophets, and some {as} evangelists, and some {as} pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ"

Unifying of the faith and true knowledge leads to a mature man, one who's like Christ.

So for one to answer his question WWJD accurately, he'd have to know WWJT.

Brad B

[Adam]

Would a man filled with God's Spirit talk like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K8XjObzfXM

"You will know them by their fruits..."

[Adam]

...false teachers, that is.

[Rusty]

Hi Brad,

I remember Greg talking about the WWJD thing on one of his shows waaaay back. He concluded that WWJT was a better approach for the reasons you stated here.

I have thought about it that way since and have not been the same.

-Rusty

[Sam]

If some people can perform miracles, but not by the power of the Holy Spirit, and if there are counterfeit miracles, then how can Jesus' miracles have served as any evidence that he was a prophet or the Christ? Jesus appealed to his miracles at least a few times as evidence of who he was, or that he had authority to forgive sins.

[Perry Shields]

"What would Jesus have ME do?" is a more reasonable question.

How in the world could I presume to know what Jesus would think? It would be filtered through my own biases, tainted through the faucet.

Each of us has a unique calling in each unique situation. Jesus didn't always react the same to every situation, nor can we adequately predict what He would "do" or "think." We cannot even predict how we, ourselves, will react in certain situations, and our thinking is not always reliable.

Christ-imitation will only go so far, and that is not the point. Hopefully, the renewing of our minds by the Holy Spirit changes our behavior unknowingly, like handling a piece of uranium alters our molecular structure. We become new creatures not of our own doing or thinking.

[Brad B]

Hi Sam, what do you make of Matt 7 where Jesus says "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you". These people did miracles in His name.

I think it's possible that the miracles testified to Jesus' authority and verified his divinity because they were done in His name--even though by the wicked.

Brad B

[Kyle]

sam you asked: "If some people can perform miracles, but not by the power of the Holy Spirit, and if there are counterfeit miracles, then how can Jesus' miracles have served as any evidence that he was a prophet or the Christ?"

Deuteronomy 13: 1-5 says:

1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Deuteronomy 18: 20-22

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Jesus has not broken either of these. What He said has come to pass. He never pointed us anywhere except to the Father. Oh and everything Jesus has said has come from the Father.

John 12: 49-50
49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

Jesus is our Prophet, Priest and King!

[Sam]

Kyle, Jesus did advocate honoring himself just as people honor the father (John 5:23), so it's not true that "He never pointed us anywhere except to the Father." He pointed us to himself, too. A person who was trying to decide whether Jesus was a false prophet or not may very well invoke Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and say that Jesus was asking people to "go after other gods," and was thus a false prophet.

But anyway, my point was to ask how miracles could serve as evidence of a person's authority. The passages you cited basically just say that miracles CANNOT serve as evidence of a person's authority since even false prophets can perform them. Yet Jesus appealed to his miracles as evidence of his authority.

[Sam]

Brad, I just don't see how doing a miracle in Jesus' name is any evidence of Jesus' authority or identity. After all, in the passage Kyle cited, there are false prophets who perform miracles in order to get people to go after other gods. That must mean these false prophets are performing miracles in the name of other gods. If those miracles do not serve as evidence of the authority of these other gods, then how can miracles serve as evidence of Jesus' authority, even if done in his name?

[Brad B]

Hi Sam, I'm not going to say how it is that the wicked did miracles in Jesus' name, but just that as it is recorded in scripture, they said in essence we did miracles in you name. It seems that they used his authority which means that the authority to do miracles was tied to Jesus, not the ordinary man. In no stretch, this is a testament to who Jesus is, I think.

Brad

[Gabe]

This is a short response to Frank Beckwith's comment above.

Other concerns with “WWJD ethic” aside, I think your criticism is weak because it is inaccurate. WWJD does not mean 'What *Did* Jesus Do?’, implying that we ought to imitate his actions (such as the one you mention). WWJD, on the other hand, means 'What *Would* Jesus Do?'. That is, what would Jesus do if he were in circumstances C--say the set of circumstances I find myself in now? This approach is similar the virtue theorist's inquiry into what an ideal moral agent might do in a given set of circumstances.

Any thought?

Gabe

[Kevin W]

I happen to agree with Beckwith. God (Jesus) and us sinners are so drastically different that it’s impossible to ask such a question and be serious about it. That’s a very serious thing.

I propose. WWJWMTD.

What Would Jesus Want Me To Do?

It wouldn’t fit on a bracelet though.

[Gabe]

Kevin,

Dr. Beckwith's criticism was different than yours. I don't think his objection was a good one. That said, your comment raises the major problem with using "the ideal moral agent" to answer questions of applied ethics.

For example, let's say that I'm in a situation where I can either vow to do action A or not vow to do action A. (Assume that I am at that moment intending to do A.) It seems that an ideal agent would make the vow since she would know that she will be able to follow through with A. If I have a 30% chance of not following through with A, even though I intend to at this time, I should not vow. These sorts of illustrations should that person S with certain weaknesses and limitations ought not always do what the ideal agent ought to do.

Thus, as you suggested, perhaps we should wonder instead what *I* ought to do in C, not what the ideal agent (e.g., Jesus) ought to do.

Gabe

[Kevin W]

Actually, Perry beat me to the punch now that I read. Sorry Perry.

However I ardently disagree with your statement:

>> “Each of us has a unique calling in each unique situation.”

[Rick]

heh I guess that's what you get when you're on a site full of thinkers.. you get people trying to overthink everything :) Or maybe Im just smarter then the next nut, it's always been a What Would Jesus Do in my situation. With my knowledge of who Jesus is, and how he interacted with people and situations in the Bible, can that guide me in the decision before me? WWJD, it's pretty simple and it encompasses WWJT and vice versa. Why get hung up on it?

[Brad B]

Hi Kevin W, given what you said here "I happen to agree with Beckwith. God (Jesus) and us sinners are so drastically different that it’s impossible to ask such a question and be serious about it. That’s a very serious thing."

What do you make of this scripture? Heb.2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Hbr 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hbr 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

It seems like you want to emphasize Jesus' divine nature over His humanness.

Brad B

[Perry Shields]

Kevin-

Why do you ardently disagree?

I just meant that in whatever situation we find ourselves, we react uniquely according to our gifts.

[Louis Kuhelj]

"Where do we ever see the Holy Spirit working in a way that isn't testifying to our Lord Jesus?"

Kyle,
the question you should be asking is: "What spirit is working here?"
I think that in a way, your question actually suggests this question.

[Kevin W]

Brad,

I understand the verses you chose. I didn’t necessarily want to emphasize His divine nature over His humanness; I was just making the point that what Jesus “would do” may not be what we “should do.” I was just trying to refocus the basic idea behind the question (which I obviously support and believe in). What Jesus requires is something more direct, more precise, than asking ourselves that question.

[Kevin W]

Perry-

“Ardently” was a poor choice of words on my part.

You originally wrote:

>>” “Each of us has a unique calling in each unique situation.”

You followed up with:

>>”I just meant that in whatever situation we find ourselves, we react uniquely according to our gifts.”

I think this sounds about right; and maybe true in many cases, but when it comes to choices of morality and decisions that really matter in living a Christian lifestyle - that kind of thinking can lead to the wrong conclusion. There is but one choice; The right one.

[Louis Kuhelj]

Catchy phrases can have a down side. They become so ubiquitous that they loose their ability to grab attention in any kind of serious way. Saying it plainly, they become mostly taken for granted and ignored or usurped for comedy. To illustrate this point I just recently saw a bumper sticker that read "What would Scooby do".
After a while, ubiquitous acronyms are simply relegated to the intellectual scrap heap.

It is far more effective to engage a topic in a fresh and original way that stays clear of the well trodden path of ubiquity.

[Rose]

It seems to me that another problem with Todd Bentley and others like him is the rich narcissism that is going on here. It's all about ME and MY experience with God/angels/the third heaven etc.

[Hidden]

Hi,
As one who has not been to Lakeland but is seeking "TRUTH," I think there have been some very good and valid points made here. Thank you all for your input it has helped me. I guess we all need to be aware of Jude's message "that we should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." The truth is there will be (I believe there already is) a falling away from the "faith or truth," and there are the false and the tares amongst the wheat. We cannot tell until the harvest when we will see the wheat, which when it is fully ripe is bent over, which signifies to me a humility the tares do not have nor cannot have because of pride. Some are still immature, carnal, fleshly as the Corinthian church and we are warned not to put a novice into ministry. 1Tim.3:6 There is indeed a mixture in the church right now so we must not "just receive" anything but be sober and vigilant for the enemy does go about as a lion seeking whom he may devour.

We must remember we are to be desiring to be conformed into the likeness and image of Christ individually. That is what the Holy Spirit is doing. He does miracles, healings, etc. that we may all come into that new creation. I believe He is rebuilding and restoring "the temple" that cannot be made by human hands into "it's former glory" that Jesus and the Father can live in us and live thru us. This was the life Paul lived. Paul said "It is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me." Paul preached the cross and gloried in the cross that he had been crucified and the old man had died. I guess this is the message that is missing in all the reports I have heard. I do not hear the message the disciples preached which was death to self, denying self, laying down your life and suffering. "It is written if we share in His sufferings we shall share in His glory, if a man suffers in the flesh he ceases from sin." This is the gospel.. If this message was being preached, Jesus the King exalted and preminent with evidence of the "Kingdom of God" being manifested, then I could accept it.

Jesus only did the things the Father told him to do and said only what the Father said. He only desired to glorify the Father the same way we are to desire to glorify Jesus and the Father.

I heard something the other day that really blessed me. Since Jesus was THE TRUTH, He could speak nothing else---we must humble ourselves and yield to the work of the Holy Spirit in us that Jesus be formed in us, thereby we will know and speak Truth.

The Lord bless all those who love and seek the TRUTH.

"Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH. 2Thess.2:9-12
May God have mercy on us!!!