The Trinity in Romans

Fred Sanders preaches on the Trinity in the book of Romans.  Here's his summary and the reason to listen to it:

The Trinity is lurking in Romans, and I hope you can see that it is lurking in the life of every believer. This trinitarian reality is going on in your life whether you know that you know it or not.

Comments

[Mijk V]

Fred's point that the Trinity is present in scripture before it was explicitly named centuries later is very true, but pointing to the structure of Romans as evidence is mislead and wrong.

The Father's wrath, Christ's propitiation, and the Spirit's deliverance? Yikes!

Where does the last half of the book fit into that structure? I'm suspicious of an interpretation that relegates almost half of the book as a postscript.

[Paul_S]

I would have to side with Mijk V on this. Not that the trinity isn't in Romans. In Romans we have God the Father, the Son of God as the Lord, and the Holy Spirit spoken of as separate entities. We also have all three shown as deity. Jesus in Romans 10:13;(10:9). The Holy Spirt being God's Spirit in Romans 8:9. Also in 8:9 being the Spirit of Christ.

[SocietyVs]

I just have to throw in some commentary concerning the Romans passages and Trinity references.

Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

In that passage we Jesus as lord (messiah) and GOD raising him from the dead. That passage does not point to the trinity at all. If so, then Jesus, as God, does not have the ability to 'raise himself from the dead'.

Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

The argument can be made that the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ are the same thing - I would not make that assumption.

I am not sure how the spirit of God became a 3rd entity/personality of God. This same spirit is also represented in the Tanakh a few times and never does Judaism refer to this as another personality of God - but rather - the basic outworking of God.

Jump to the NT and for some odd reason we are finding interpretations concerning the same thing (spirit of God) - and this time it's another personality of God (3rd person in Trinity).

I find no reason to believe that God's actions/outworking should reflect another personality of God - or a 3rd person of God? I just don't get the reasoning behind it.

It makes no sense that the originators of our faith (Judaism) have no teaching like this - even though they know of the spirit of God from their scriptures (same ones we share with them). Yet our faith makes the deviation from that line of thinking to adding the spirit of God into another personality of God.

What makes this even more strange is 'God is a Spirit'...that's God's normal being. Doesn't it make sense His movements would also be a spirit type action - like how our actions are physical in nature? How do we go from that to making God's movements into another person in the Trinity?

[Brad B]

Hi SocietyVs, it seems to me that the faith you'd be calling your own is Judaism, since you consistently deny the devine personhood of Jesus and the personhood of the Spirit of God.

you say this:

"I find no reason to believe that God's actions/outworking should reflect another personality of God - or a 3rd person of God? I just don't get the reasoning behind it."

Here's one reason some of us would call the Spirit of God a 3rd Person, because Jesus did here:

John 15:26 ""When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me"

[He will testify about Me] sounds personal to me.

Brad B

[MontyMoose]

The obvious can be as obscure as our minds make it.
The question is, does it make a difference, to make a difference,
To argue against the truth is difficult but those who profess to have it often use false suppositions as their basis of fact.

[Santiago]

My pastor has been preaching through Romans for over a year now and the Trinity is apparent throughout the book. We tend to think of Romans as a source of good strong doctrine, and indeed it is. However, it is so much more. If you read it devotionally, with an eye for informing your motives, then you will come away interacting with God in the fullness of the the trinity. Just spend a few weeks camping on the first half of Romans 8 after having spent a year studying it up to that point. Just look at verses 9-11! Yowswers!!! I uploaded an audio excerpt of a recent sermon here:

http://audio.xanga.com/jimpemberton/f5d1e2937271/audio.html

[SocietyVs]

“it seems to me that the faith you'd be calling your own is Judaism, since you consistently deny the devine personhood of Jesus and the personhood of the Spirit of God.” (Brad)

But I am not in Judaism – I accept Jesus as the messiah (Judaism does not accept this tenet). I deny the divinity because of sound reasoning – nothing more. Is it ‘anti-God’ – not really – it’s just a study of the scriptures and seeing that it is not quite as I was told in some neat little doctrinal code.

I found an interesting piece in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28

“But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”

2 clear things stand out concerning this relationship between God and Jesus (according to Paul):

(a) “He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father”

(b) “the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him”

Paul says ‘the God and Father’ – like Jesus and God were different. Jesus is also subject to God the Father – not equal – but subject to God the Father (The God and Father). That’s interesting wording, in my personal opinion, about God the Father and His relationship to Jesus – how else can it be explained except to say ‘God grants Jesus the power and authority he has – and then in turn gets it back again’. It’s not Jesus’ kingdom – it’s not Jesus’ who has subjects – but is subject.

“John 15:26 ""When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me"

I have nothing wrong with spirit of God being personal – this is not even in contention. I also notice something there – the Helper is sent from the Father – proceeds from the Father – how is this not an outworking of God? I see no sound reason to make the claim of a 3rd personality from that passage or any passages like this in scripture. The spirit of God is exactly that – God’s spirit – not another person of God. I find it funny this even considered a 3rd aspect of the Trinity.

[Paul S]

Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

In that passage we Jesus as lord (messiah) and GOD raising him from the dead. That passage does not point to the trinity at all. If so, then Jesus, as God, does not have the ability to 'raise himself from the dead'. -- SocietyVs

Yes, making that distinction between Jesus the Lord being a man and God. Yet in Romans 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." is a direct reference to the Jesus' deity citing Joel 2:32. In the Greek text the word for 'Lord,' the man Jesus, and 'Lord,' that is God, there is no distinction as to the word 'Lord.' In the Hebrew they are two different words translated 'Lord.' Those who accept the trinity explanation of God, also accept and understand the dual nature of Christ, being both the man Jesus and the Lord God. The Apostle Paul often makes the distinction between the the Lord Jesus the man and God, and just as often speaks of them being God. Romans 10:9 & 13 is an example. As to the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, you cannot show that they are not the same Spirit. But you can show that God, the Lord and the Spirit are at times spoken of in distinction.