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July 30, 2009

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According to Muslims, wouldn't the God of the Bible and the God of the Qu'ran be the same?

It probably depends on the language. Allah is an Arabic word meaning 'God,' right? So according to the article, Arabic-speaking Christians were using the word Allah before Islam.

But you're right that there's a lot of connotation that comes with the word 'Allah' in English. I'd suggest it depends on the context. Using Allah might be a good way to minister to Muslims, if we need to emphasize the similarities or to point out the way Muhammad appropriated Biblical teachings. Or, not using it might be good if we need to emphasize the differences between the religions.

Does the fact that Arab Christians have been using "Allah" to refer to the Father of Jesus Christ for longer than Islam has been around factor in here?

Or what about the fact that the Hebrew "El" is the generic word for God and could be used of false gods as well as the true God? The same would be true (and moreso) in relation to the Greek "theos"? Even our English word "God" (I believe) comes from German and prior to our absconding with it, it referred to pagan deities.

In other words, it seems that there is a lot of historical precedent for this sort of borrowing and redeeming in history.

"The names, not just the terms, are laden with specific identity and theological content that refer to a specific being, and these beings are quite different according to each religion."

Even more so, the conceptual referents are quite different according to each person, regardless of the proper name. So why do we have no problem using the name "God" when we evangelize to nominal Christians with a false perception of God? Or using the name Elohim when evangelizing to Mormons? It's because we have faith that those terms that are currently directed toward false gods can be transformed into a vision of the one true God.

The term and concept of "Allah" is easily within striking distance for the gospel to enter into and transform into a clear vision of the one true God.
If that transformation involves abandoning the term "Allah," then so be it, but I don't see how this is necessary.

Receiving the gospel should not require accepting the host culture. Accepting the gospel is hard enough, why would we want to make it unnecessarily more difficult with cultural-linguistic hangups?

You could make that argument here amongst the rising interest in a pantheistic "god". Even that word could be taken by some to mean, 'an unknowable, impersonal being'. Although some pantheistic religions do have names for this thing (Brahaman, if i spelled that right). Maybe as some of the posts here have pointed out, its perhaps, a matter of disgression.

I think this issue arises in part from the fact that we have started to consider the English word "God" as a name of the God of the Bible, when it would more accurately be called a description.

I think that from our perspective as Christians we would have to say that either Muslims do not believe in the same God that we do, or they do but have a terribly flawed understanding of Him.

When it comes to sharing our Faith with a Muslim, I don't think the issue is nearly so much what word we use as a description, but finding a way to get across the truth.

"Our evangelistic goal is to call Muslims from false worship of Allah to the God of the Bible, and it seems to me a strict translation of the terms doesn't adequately communicate the differences between the persons Allah and God."

'Nuff (and well) said.

The Columbo tactic of "what do you mean by..." might be in order. Because the problem does not lay only with Islam. We would also need to be clear about the definition with Mormons (who have different meaning behind the english word God) and even the Jehovas witnesses do not mean the same Jehova as he is not triune. Yet we have no other real english word to replace God with. So I think as long as we define our terms we should be able to share with a muslim using Allah.


Allah has NO Son
Self-Explanatory

Koran-Sura 5:17 "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary"

Koran-Sura 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary."

Koran-Sura 5:75 "Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him."

Koran-Sura 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah...Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son."

Koran-Sura 112:1-3 "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten"


Wc, according to the Koran, yes. The question is, did Jesus actually rise from death? If I am not mistaken (and correct me if I am), the Koran also says Judas died in his place? (Or essentially that Jesus was not even killed on a cross). The Koran also wrote many wonderful things about Jesus, despite the tremendous lapse in time between the Koran and Jesus. I would look to see if the historical record is trustworthy.

In my limited experience in interacting with Muslims I have found that other words are more problematic. One word in particular they have a hard time with...scapegoat. They consider Jesus to be a scapegoat for the rest of us and this they try to point out is demeaning to a revered teacher like Jesus. The problem is that it is quite clear that the word scapegoat does not apply since Jesus willingly took our punishment...whereas a scapegoat is an unwilling victim. This distinction is something that they often miss.

Louis, ive actually heard another christian speak of this very same obsticle too

My Illustration of verses in the Koran was not a truth claim.

In Islam, this point is very important faith wise.

1.Again, it is unforgivable sin to say or to believe that the One Almighty Creator [who is Allah or God or the Lord or Jehovah or whatever name(s) you are giving Him] has a son or Sons.
From the Islamic point of view, the conclusion of this essential topic that may establish or destroy the faith is that:

Any one who believe that the Almighty Creator has a son or Sons; he messes his faith up and is considered as a disbeliever and in the afterlife he will end up as an eternal inhabitant of the hell.

Any one who believes that the Almighty Creator has neither a son nor a partner he has a good faith and is considered as a believer and in the afterlife he will end up as an eternal inhabitant of the paradise

I just finished a very good (secular) historical novel about the Cherokee Indians at the time of the dispute between them and the U.S.

This was an often-repeated subject in the novel; apparently the Moravian missionaries of the time dealt with this same problem with the native Americans. When they attempted to evangelize, the main character, Major Ridge (a Cherokee) and many other native Americans insisted that their own God was the same as that of the Moravians.

I was actually fascinated at how much of the indians' theology regarding the god they worshipped was relatively sound. And of course, many many Cherokee did in fact become believers. But the book doesn't elaborate on how the missionaries dealt with this particular identity problem.

Oops... the novel is "Oblivion's Altar" by David Marion Wilkinson.

Can the God of Islam be truly different from the God of Christianity? In other words, how many Gods are out there? I see Protestantism as being sharply different from Catholicism; would this mean the two groups worship different Gods? One or both groups may be in error in their understanding of who God is, but their worship is directed to the only God that can be worshiped. I suppose Cain and Able worshiped the same God.

Who refers to God as "God" during prayer. Most people use "Lord" or "Father". In Arabic why not use "Abba" or "Rabbi"

Allah is the Arabic Name of God were as Yehwah is the Hebrew Name of God.

Allah comes from the contraction of the Arabic for "the God." And was in use by Arabs for the name head god (Moon god) of a patheon of gods. Th'God so to speak in English.

Where as Yehwah is the Hebrew Name of God which means the "Self Existing One." The One "Who Is."

The claim is made that Allah is God's only true Name, and is the God of Abraham, and the Prophet Jesus and Muhammad who is the last prophet. The Qur'an is what Allah told Muhammad to recite.

Koran-Sura 5:17 "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary"

Koran-Sura 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary."
Mary is NOT the mother of God. So from that stand point those suras are in fact correct in that regard.

Koran-Sura 5:75 "Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him."
That in the Qur'an it is acknowledges Jesus the son of Mary to be the Christ. (1 John 5:1) The problem is the rank and file Muslims do not have a correct view of what it means that Jesus the messenger is the Christ.

Koran-Sura 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah...Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son."Mary did not give birth to God's only begotten Son. He was Son of God from eternity. Not begotton and not made. Since God has no wife, Sura 6:101 "Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.
." And so, Mary the mother of Jesus is not God's wife. Jesus is not God's son because He was born of Mary.

Koran-Sura 112:1-3 "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten"

Isaiah wrote, "says the LORD, . . . that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I [am] He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me." (Isaiah 43:10.)

It is also written, "[There is] no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." (Proverbs 21:30.)

Saturday August 01, 2009
PAKISTAN: CHRISTIANS BURNED TO DEATH IN ISLAMIST ATTACKS
14 believers reportedly killed; more than 100 homes burned in Gojra town, Korian village.

GOJRA, Pakistan, August 1 (Compass Direct News) – Islamic extremists today set ablaze more than 50 houses and a church in this town in northeastern Pakistan following an accusation of “blasphemy” of the Quran, leaving at least 14 Christians dead, sources said. The dead include women and children, with several other burn victims unable to reach hospitals for medical care, according to the Centre for Legal Aid Assistance and Settlement. The attack came amid a protest by thousands of Muslim Islamists – including members of banned militant groups – that resulted in another six people dying when participants shot at police and officers responded with tear gas and gunfire. The same rumor of desecration of the Quran that led to today’s massive protest and attack in Gojra, 50 kilometers (31 miles) from Faisalabad, also prompted an arson assault on Thursday (July 30) by Islamic extremists on the village of Korian, seven miles from Gojra, that gutted 60 houses. Punjab Minister for Law Rana Sanaullah reportedly said an initial investigation of allegations of the Quran being blasphemed indicated “there has not been any incident of desecration.”

***
More than philosophy more than just words.
Today blasphemy laws still exist.
This subject "Does Allah = GOD of the Bible" has real consequences !
It's Simply tragic when we play at christianity.

Allah has NO Son
Self-Explanatory

Dozie,

"I suppose Cain and Able worshiped the same God."

Does everyone worship the same God then?

Doesn't worship consist in glorifying and exalting the particular qualities of the One we are praising? Do our beliefs not form the content of our worship? If I worship Jesus as the risen God and Savior of all who believe, is this not fundamentally different than Jews who worship the LORD God whose Messiah is still yet to come?

Remember God rejected Cain's worship. God was not honored by Cain's offering. It was in fact a failure to worship the actual God.

Dozie :)

Who spared and protected Cain ???

Abel's blood cried out to Who ???

Genesis 4:10-16 (New King James Version)
10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”
13 And Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”
15 And the LORD said to him, “Therefore,[a] whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the LORD set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.


Lev 10:1
What was the great sin of Nadab and Abihu? Did they do something immoral? No. They were duely appointed priests. They used censers that were acceptable in the rightful worship. They offered incense that was also used in the rightful worship. Yet, what they did was profane. What they did was not holy. Why? Because it was something God had not commanded them to do! When they worshipped as God commanded, what they did was dedicated to God, it was holy, it was acceptable to God. When they worshipped God by doing something that He had not commanded, their actions were profane. Their sacrifice was unholy, it was not acceptable to God.

Some translations have the more literal 'strange fire' in verse 1. The word 'strange' in this context refers to something that is unholy or profane because it is not authorized for use in a sacred setting.

True worship is an expression of submission and respect for God. By offering a sacrifice that God had not commanded, Nadab and Abihu demonstrated arrogance and presumption before God. They did what they wanted to do instead of abiding by what God told them to do. Had God forbidden them to do what they did? Not specifically. But God has always made it clear that people are to worship Him according to His word, and not according to their own ideas.

They had disregarded a command of God: "By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified" (Lev. 10:3). At Mount Sinai God had said: "Also let the priests who come near the LORD sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break out against them" (Exodus 19:22).

1 corinthians 15:12

The Risen Christ, Our Hope

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

"Remember God rejected Cain's worship. God was not honored by Cain's offering. It was in fact a failure to worship the actual God."

You are implying that the wrong God rejected Cain's worship. The point that I am making is the affirmation that there is only one God. There are not competing dieties worthy of worship existing anywhere. It is also my point that many people and religious systems worship God in error, sometimes, in grave error.

"It was in fact a failure to worship the actual God."

So what your saying is that the actual god whom Cain failed to worship spared & protected him. And not that he worshiped the GOD of his father Adam Profanely ???

God has always made it clear that people are to worship Him according to His word, and not according to their own ideas. :)

Judges 21:25

25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Dozie

When you say actual god do you mean the Triune GOD ???

Im confused on who's being affirmed

Yes Im trinitarian :)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)

Dozie,

When I write that God rejected Cain's worship, I mean the real and living God, not someone else. If God did the rejecting, it was Him and no one else. I am not implying the exact opposite of my statement "God rejected his worship."

wc,
Actually, I did not mention that God protected Cain. However, both statements are true that: Cain did not worship the true God, and Cain worshiped the true God profanely. What Cain worshiped about God was inaccurate, and hence profane. Now, the Being whom Cain believed in, with the particular attributes and nature that he ascribed to Him, did not exist but in his imagination. So he profaned his worship of the one true God by offering it in the image of a false god of his own origination.
Cain worshiped the true God profanely because he did not worship him truly.

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