Engaging the Abortion Discussion

Greg outlined two parts of arguing for the pro-life position:

The Moral Logic

Is the Unborn a Human Person?

 

Comments

[Sally]

God wills abortion.

[Vic]

God also willed the most evil act ever comitted as part of His plan.
...and I cannot fathom why for either...

[Sally]

God wills abortion.

It's just like the death and pain of Jesus.

All things that happen are willed by God. God wills abortion. All abortions. Including the one I had.

[Houx]

If life begins at conception then abortion is wrong. How do I know that there are some absolutes? There are some good arguments that transcendent, absolute, moral truths exist. Despite all the differences among us there is still a way to discover some goods. One of these goods is love. I think the following premises are true and hold together. If it is objected that psychopaths wouldn't accept them (without giving a good reason why they aren't true) then all that shows is that the psychopath is irrational. That is, until there can be shown a good reason why one of the premises is false we are justified in accepting them.

1. If life is held both in common and uniquely by all human beings then human life should be preserved, protected, and valued. We should have a reverence for life and an acceptance of natural death.

2. Life is held both in common and uniquely by all human beings.

3. Therefore, human life should be preserved, protected, and valued. We should have a reverence for life and an acceptance of natural death.

Which naturally leads us to this:

1. If human life should be valued then we ought not murder others or cause significant pain and suffering to others for our own pleasures.

2. Human life should be valued

3. So, we ought not murder others or cause significant pain and suffering to others for our own pleasures

Since these truths are unchanging they must be eternal. Why? Well, the whole universe and everything in it is in motion and therefore changing or evolving. Since these moral truths don't change and the universe does then these truths must exist outside our universe. They are not subject to the laws of decay. They are eternal and transcendent. This is the case with love.

[Amy]

"Sally," I just want to make it clear that we don't allow agenda posting. You've come here many times to debate about God's sovereignty, and we can't allow you to turn unrelated posts to that same topic (particularly in a sarcastic way that confuses people about your real intentions and so wastes their time responding to you). We have this same rule for any agenda topic.

I've removed your conversation with Brad. If you're not able to follow this guideline, you will be removed from this forum.

[Sally]

I'm working through my own abortion as it relates to His will. I'm fairly comfortable with the idea that nothing happens that He does not will. It's important I think. We all do things we regret. And God's will is what God's will is. We shouldn't be afraid of either one, our regretful actions, or His will. It's all very real. And sometimes harsh and sometimes wonderful. But if we can't face these together I understand. What do you say of a woman who had an abortion? Of the past event? Of His will? Does He will all events and things? I think He does. The question here is about how to view abortion. How to talk about it. How to place it into the big picture. I think how we view it within our own circles is much more important than how all those on the outside view it. But, if we are only to have conversations with those on the outside...... I think Christians and non Christians disagree and even agree here, and I think Christians and Christians also disagree and agree here. That latter set of conversations are incredibly important. Perhaps not here? The topic is abortion. I'm a Christian. Speaking with other Christians. Even agreeing with them for the most part. Abortion is a very real problem and God's willing is a very real, and very important, issue as it relates to that. Where, or when, can we talk about this?

[Jennifer]

Sally,

God loves you and you are as white as snow. God doesn't will this for you. Just trust him and know that his love will defeat any and all of our problems if we lean on him and trust him and love him. He loves you and the whole point of Jesus is that his love is given to the world for our sins and he takes away our sins. His will for you is nothing less than that you and him know each other and love each other forever and don't let anyone tell you any different. His word says that you are whiter than snow, forgiven, and clean. Just trust him and lean on him and love him, and let him love you, and you can't go wrong.

[TomB]

Sally I'd bag the whole thing and stick with 'Jennifer'.

[Brad B]

Hi Sally, I think I'm intamately familiar with your struggle--but from the male perspective. I, as you do also, understand that the bibilical revelation is clear that nothing happens without God's ultimate approval. My history includes the whole hearted agreement to kill my baby when before marraige my wife and I were promiscuous. I actually believed the blob of tissue baloney[probably because I wanted the problem to go away. Terror came to visit me when I to had come to realize what I approved of. I'm a father who killed his baby for convenience. I still mourn for my baby after 35 years. I know God's forgiveness, am sorely repentant, and/but still will miss her. God has demonstrated a love that I cant fully fathom, but I know His love, even at the expense of the life of someone He gave to me. To whom much is forgiven much is required--I feel debt that He paid to redeem someone like me. I trust His care for my baby who I didn't care for at the time.

It seems to me that you also have reconciled that this event happened as something to change you in this life, hopefully for the better and eternally. Glory for God is displayed in His goodness and His wrath. I believe that the same event can accomplish both simultaneously.

So, back to the question[if you didn't see it, here it is again] how do you reconcile Gods command to not murder with His sovereignty?

[TomB]

Amy I agree with the sarcastic charge. Pretty obvious. I also think she was hitting too close to home and maybe you're just blamming the bad taste of it on her ill intentions instead of that particular description of things. Which by the way is comically accurate for a lot of folks here on str. Calvinism and all that. Not my thing at all. Looking at His will that way is pretty off to my way of looking at it; but I think Sally hit it dead on and some of us just are not comfortable with how it looks up close. I know I wasn't and I was about to jump in and say something to her. Nothing doing now though I guess. If perfect motives are a requirement then I'm out too probably.

Sally I'd just stick with Jennifer's comment. It's 100% on target.

[Brad B]

Amy, I think I might've missed a clue about "Sally", if this is Jeff/Cog, he is an idiot, brazenly dishonest, and should be banned. IMO. If not, "Sally", please proceed.

[Sally]

Brad I don't think we're supposed to dive into that. I loved your recollection of your experience and thank you. I had said something about it all being His will and it got pretty ugly though. Obedience. Disobedience. Heaven. Hell. Saved. Lost. He willed it all. He wills it all. There isn't anything to reconcile therefore. It's all willed by God. There is no such thing as an event or thing which He didn't will. If someone sins, it's part of His will. If someone obeys, it's part of His will. If that sin leads a soul to hell, it's part of His will. If to heaven, then that too is part of His overall plan and will. All things and events are part of what is planned and part of His willing. If there is something there that needs reconciling, I don't see it. He wills we obey. He wills we fall.

In otherwords, everything that happens is willed by God. It gets ugly if I zoom that in to my own abortion. But I'm not sure I can change the wording if I zoom in, and then change it back when I zoom back out. If someone asks, "Did God will that you fall?" I can only say yes. If someone asks did God will that you obey, I can only say yes.

Eve's fall, Eve's choice to disobey, Eve's sin, was willed by God. That's zoomed out. My sin, my abortion, my choice to disobey, was willed by God. That's zoomed in. I should have obeyed; that's zoomed in. Eve should have obeyed; that's zoomed out. It's all the same though really. The words never change. God wills it. Obey. Disobey. Hell. Heaven. Abortion. Adoption. God wills it.

Everything that happens is willed by God.

There isn't really anything in need of reconciling therefore. Is it God's will for me to obey? Yes. Did God will all things, including my act of disobeying which He knew I'd do? Yes. He willed my obedience and my disobedience. Zoomed out, He wills for the larger plan, which has it that I, and many, disobey. Zoomed in, He wills for my life, which has it that I obey. But the zoom lens is the lens of but one telescope: that of God. It's all His will. It's ugly if I zoom in on my own abortion, it's less ugly if I zoom out and gaze at Eden from a million miles away. But the language never changes. "God wills it". It's all the same. There truly is no such thing as an event or thing which He does not will.

[Amy]

Brad, thank you so much for sharing that. And no, not Jeff/Cog, but John/LHRM/Jennifer/TomB/Sally.

Sally/John/LHRM/Jennifer/TomB, I've made it clear that you can't be an agenda poster, and I've also made it clear that you're not allowed to post as different people in the same post. Engaging here is a privilege, not a right, and this is the end of yours. I'm sorry it had to end this way.

(If you feel you have a case to argue to prove otherwise, you may email me at amy @ str . org, and I will consider what you have to say.)

[Amy]

Brad, I feel terrible. I do apologize to you for not checking back earlier and letting it go this far. I should not have assumed "Sally" would heed what I said.

I'm very touched by what you shared, and I'm sure people will benefit from it. "Sally" has dishonored you by drawing it out this way, but I hope you know that God will use it for good.

[Brad B]

Thanks for protecting the integrity of the online blog discussions Amy. I appreciate what STR does and the work you all do to help keep us well prepared to defend life.

[Troy]

"Sally"; I think you are confusing different meanings of the word "will": to allow or not prevent, and to compel or force.

Nothing happens outside of God's will, in the sense that nothing happens outside of the boundaries He has established. He is not surprised by our actions, and there is nothing we can do that prevents His final victory.

He does allow us to do things that displease Him, anger Him, and require that we repent and seek His forgiveness in order to be in right relationship with Him.

His allowing must not be confused with His compelling.

(I take it that "Sally" is now banned, and cannot reply. I just wanted to get my thoughts out there for others that may be dealing with this line of argument.)

[Brad B]

Exactly right Troy, thanks.

Also, Amy please do not take any of the responsibility for what I posted on yourself, I have nothing to hide about that experience and have openly shared it before. I think God used it to sanctify me, as it has profoundly changed me and through it, others have learned of the consequences of abortion--even on the survivors.

The motives of others are certainly not under your control and I'm sure you have plenty to do besides watching the blog postings every minute. Thanks for your concern though.

[Daron]

Thanks so much for that testimony, BradB.

[Brad B]

Your welcome Daron, maybe when a discussion about the truth of abortion comes up and it seems like I'm a little too invested in the conversation, some will know why my hackles are raised.

If someone is unfamiliar with "hackles", here is a definition:

"hackles
the hairs over the neck and back that are elevated by arrector pili muscles in response to fright or anger. A mechanism to threaten opponents, perhaps by appearing larger"

Well, off to Sunday services.

[Alex]

Hopefully boomers have lots of money saved up. Social security benefits are paid by younger workers who are still working.

Not born? Don't contribute.

Up north they are looking to increase the age for social security benefits because there isn't enough people paying in because post boomer geneations are getting smaller.

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