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December 06, 2012

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This is the first post I've seen either before or after the recent election cycle that even comes close to addressing the biggest tragedy that no one talked about at all: the intentional embracing by "Christian" leaders of a pagan cult in order to gain some type of Christian-political influence.

I don't know if anyone else was paying attention during the last 6 months, but you had people like Pat Robertson publicly stating that Romney is an "outstanding Christian", Billy Graham publicly endorsing Romney and then removing Mormonism from his list of cults, and a bunch of pastors preaching from the pulpit that Christians should "vote the Bible in support of Christian values", the implied message being vote for Romney because he supports Christian values.

What a bunch of hogwash! First, Romney by definition cannot support Christian values; he is a pagan dead in his trespasses and sin who, if he died today, would spend eternity in hell. The fact that some of his values he claimed to support during this election cycle might be "conservative" or might resemble some of the values found in the Bible doesn't mean that he supports Christian values. What we should have been hearing was a clarion call for Christians to pray that God give His saving Grace to both Romney and Obama and rescue them from their sinful selves, and for Christians to take action and seek opportunities to deliver the Gospel to both of those men.

Second, and more importantly, we have a situation where so-called Christian leaders have deliberately led both believers and non-believers astray. Both the Church, and even worse, the World, now have an even greater opportunity to be confused as to what exactly Christianity is; the message that was broadcast loud and clear in both Christian and non-Christian circles was exactly what Pat Robertson falsely claimed.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not really worried because the Lord is in control and orders all according to His Will, but I also think that He will not deal very kindly with those who have deliberately distorted the Gospel and led others astray in return for gain either for themselves or a culture they support.

"C"

Today is 12/06/2012. How do you know Mitt will, on this day specifically, should he die, be cast out? I mean that specific piece of information of that particular person at this specific hour--- as you are reading this?

Except we be with a man in the very moment he breathes his last, how can we make that call?

Judgement of Heaven/Hell has been put into one Person's Hand.

I am not that person.

c, the September/October issue of Solid Ground was devoted to explaining why Mormonism isn't Christianity. You can read that here.

Unfortunately, even many Christians now believe Mormonism is just another Christian denomination. Any attempt to correct them will be met with accusations of being "unloving" and "judgmental".

This response is becoming more and more common from fellow Christians, regardless of what the subject may be. I'm at a loss.

One could say of a professing atheist the claim about having intimate knowledge of that soul's status this very hour, right now, while not even in that person's immediate company, and I would still ask, " Right this minute? But how can you possibly know *that*?

Making that claim (to have that intimate knowledge) is not only irresponsible, it simply cannot be proved: it's a call only one can make. I am not that One.

The error of claiming such intimate knowledge may perhaps be brought out with this:


We all know there will be a few professing, good living Christians who are not actually Christians, who have a heart which does not belong to Him for whatever reason. Now, those reasons can be any number of things; but the inward nuances of that person just cannot be "weighed" by his mere speech, his mere "put-on" appearence.


But how will we claim to have intimate knowlege of that specific person who really is not a Christian?


We cannot have that knowledge of his interior. Or, we will all be surprised I think. "But I was SURE Joe-Bob would be here!"

Now, perhaps if God's Spirit shows us something and we are willing to tack on "Thus saith the Lord" to our damming of him, then, well, I suppose such would be possible.


In the reverse it is perhaps a little easier to "see through" from the outside as the professing Atheist is quite clear.


I will say that even here, from a distance, we must use care. I have insider information about one's inward journey when it comes to my wife, perhaps my parents, and several close friends. However, I will confess this: beyond that distance I have been both fooled and just wrong in the past.


I have thought a certain one quite far from God only to discover that particular one's rather painful and intimate struggle with God's Hound which was working wonders. But in the middle of that struggle that one isn't going to broadcast the progress of that on-gong struggle: he'll project the usual. Privacy in such personal or painful and intimate matters is maintained until one is quite sure. Maybe one will reveal such to one's wife, or etc.

Experiences like these with real people who have surprised me is why I say we just cannot, from a distance of more than about a yard or two, have that sort of intimate knowledge of a soul's status before God.


To claim one has it, and then to use that claim to broadcast to the world that such and such a person is dammed to hell is irresponsible. And it's even a lie unless that person really is in your inner circle, or, if God Himself has told you so and you can tack on "Thus saith the Lord" to the pronouncement.


Only One Person has been given the seat from which to make that specific call.


I am not that One.

You folks are either making it too hard or ignoring what plain Scripture says. 1 John 2 makes it very clear:

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ."

Further, Romans 10 makes it very clear that in order to be saved, one must "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead."

Mormonism fits the passage in 1 Jn 2, and if someone wishes to be saved they must confess according to Romans 10, which is mutually exclusive to, for example, the tenets of Mormonism...

I'm with "C" on this one.

If C, or I guess any of us, makes such a purely doctrinal statement, then I’d be with him too. But I'm not with C here because he did not make a doctrinal statement. Instead he claimed to have intimate knowledge about a specific soul's status with God, and on a particular day, and from a distance. I just cannot see how one can claim to know that on day X, soul Z is dammed, and to know such a thing from a distance. How does one know *that*?


I suppose if soul Z where in one’s own inner circle allowing one such insights into, not a doctrine, but a person’s wrestling match with God, or, if God’s Spirit spoke to one about soul Z, then one could have such immediate and intimate knowledge about the interior nuances of soul Z’s unseen journey. Personally I have been wrong about others so many times that I have just stopped playing the guessing game. And it is just a guess.

On several occasions I have thought a person far from God only to discover later that person’s painful and intimate struggle with God's Hound which was working wonders. I was shocked of course that they didn't bother to tell *me*.


Experiences like these with real people who have surprised me is why I say we just cannot, from a distance of more than about a yard or two, have immediate and intimate knowledge of a soul's status with God.


C made a claim on specific insider knowledge, of a particular soul’s status inside of all that goes on, or is going on, between that soul and God, in a particular day of a particular month of a particular year. How did he know *that* about soul Z from a distance?


D,


You noted "Mormonism"
C noted "Soul Z".

If we are going to assume the massive weight of the responsibility of broadcasting to the world that soul Z is, right now, dammed, we had perhaps show how it is we have such immediate and intimate knowledge of all that is, this very minute, going on between that soul and God.

If it was just a generalized guessing game, then it was quite irresponsible.


I voted for Romney, and I think he would have been a really good President. But I'm with c in assuming that Romney will go to hell, given these provisions:

  1. He really does believe the LDS teachings especially those about Christ and his work.
  2. He persists in these views until death
  3. Christ still does not turn him, perhaps in the very moment of death.
Those are all, of course, huge provisions.

I'm no universalist, but I suspect we will all be very surprised in the afterlife because of that third provision.

Well said, WisdomLover. The scripture is clear as D pointed out. We are constrained by scripture to treat someone who denies Christ as though they are not a believer. There are other passages that D didn't cite, but I must point out that 1 John is the very same book that tells us how we can know that we have eternal life. I would dare say that 1 John may be considered to be at the heart of Christian epistemology.

To the article at hand:

It's interesting that Mormon's would want us to consider themselves just another denomination of Christianity when they actively seek to convert Christians to Mormonism. Why evangelize if we are really just the same? Obviously we're not the same, so the claim is disingenuous.

One may liken the relationship between Mormon's and Protestants to the relationship between Rome and the Protestants. The current Roman Pope has made comments that Protestants are still part of the Church that subsists in Rome. However, we Protestants do not consider ourselves Roman Catholic. So the relationship isn't the same at all.

If anything, false identification with Protestantism is a tactic to deceive Protestants into softening our understanding of our identification with Christ so that we can be brought into submission to some other belief. We do not belong to Rome and the Mormons are not part of us. They are welcome to be part of us when they accept the authority of scripture, stop following the teachings of false prophets, and submit themselves not to us but to Christ as he has been so revealed.

Remember, Mormons can be sincere in their beliefs, but they are sincerely wrong. Joseph Smith was nothing more than a charlatan and a deceiver and sadly, a lot of people have succumbed to his nonsense. They need our prayers, folks.

Hello there I am itching to know if I can use this post on one of my blogs if I link back to you? Thanks

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