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December 18, 2012

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Thats the problem with these NDE people. They tend to come back sounding like pluralists or with some sort of world view/experience that doesn't seem all that Christian.

Which begs the question, If Christian exclusivism was really true, why would God let that happen...

"What we can't conclude from these experiences that appear to be real is that what they heard and learned during these experiences are necessarly true. An experience can be real without the conclusions of the experience being accurate. That happens to us all the time even in this life. We have an experience, but we're mistaken about what we think about it."

well they're coming back with DIRECT QUOTES.

So when a DIRECT QUOTE is contrary to your biblical world view, you'd have to conclude that:

1) he heard the quote wrong (assumidly there are audio problems in heaven too)
2) he's lying.
3) he forgot the quote, is confused about what it actually said, confabulated one...?
4) it was all in his head the whole time

ToNy,


This confirms two things. First: there is more than the purely Material. Second: that which is outside of the purely Material has both Good and Evil inside of it, too.

This is good evidence for the facthood of Love and of Love's description of the Really-Real both "in here" and "out there".

"Second: that which is outside of the purely Material has both Good and Evil inside of it, too."

So you think this guy was actually conversing with demons -- and thats why so many come back with a non-christian worldview?

If one chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, then I am afraid that "conversing with demons" is the most likely explanation. Why? From reading several recent books on NDEs universalism and monism are a common message. But there are very compelling reasons to believe those views are false, i.e. the problem of evil and ultimate justice are made into a mockery if "all is one" and even the most sadistic pedophiles and genocidal despots make it to heaven scot-free. Think about it... so how do we explain these NDEs? They solve the mind/body problem but one should accept the subjective theology coming from non-Christians. For we have been warned, “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.(2 Co 11:14)

I left out the word "not" above e.g."one should NOT accept the subjective theology..."

Hi All,

Read Dr. Alexander's piece with the following in mind: He repeatedly, says in various ways, that his memories originate from the time when his cortex was 'simply off', but he never says why he thinks these memories originate from that time.

After reading through with that in mind, review. Like so: search the piece for the words 'while' and 'during'. (If you click the "Print" button you'll get a printable version of the page that you can search all in one go.)

Why should you or I believe Dr. Alexander's memories originate from the time his cortex was 'shut off' if he doesn't even say why he believes it?

I think Dr. Alexander had a sweet dream.

RonH


Considering the eery similarities between Dr. Alexander's NDE and certain published drug trips, I think the most likely explanation for his experience is that it was all in his head.
http://gawker.com/5949892/newsweek-cover-story-or-internet-posting-about-dugs-a-quiz

"I am afraid that "conversing with demons" is the most likely explanation."

ok got it

so the rule set would be:

If they come back from their NDE with anti-bible statements, they were talking to demons on the other side of the river styx.

If they come back from their NDE with pro-bible statements, they were talking to the lord's servants on the other side of the river styx.

"As a neurosurgeon, I did not believe in the phenomenon of near-death experiences. I grew up in a scientific world, the son of a neurosurgeon. I followed my father’s path and became an academic neurosurgeon, teaching at Harvard Medical School and other universities. I understand what happens to the brain when people are near death, and I had always believed there were good scientific explanations for the heavenly out-of-body journeys described by those who narrowly escaped death."


His account may be correct.


His account may be incorrect.

But, he is suspicious.

And, he knows more than most the stuff of neuro-biology.

And, again, he is suspicious.

Yet, he makes his conclusions.


None of that tells us anything; but it does set the stage for what is actually happening here.


And, there is this can of worms: We are told of a time or a place or a state where there is no more Death, nor Pain, nor Sin. That is Christianity. The statement of such is not, in itself, counter to Love's teaching there in Revelations. That statement is not an all inclusive, full account of reality; but that statement, and statements along that line, are not, in them selves, counter to Revelation's teachings about Tomorrow. All of that brings in the question of Immutable and Man in that Tomorrow, but that is a whole seperate discussion.

Did scbrownlhrm used to be called LoveHimselfRescuedMe

I miss that guy.

Is that you?

ToNy yes but I still plead the 5th ~~~~~~

Why does Dr. Alexander think his memories originate in the time his cortex was 'switched off'?

I think to be precise we would remove Time from such an event should the account be genuine. Not time here; but there. Hours worth of events are often described in what is, here, but moments.

One of the interesting features of this story is the stereotype. The consummate professor. I know the type all too well. There are those with an interior tendency to interpret this way or that way. And “those” would be all of us. In an odd way we tend to trust the skeptic who counters, cuts against, his own interior grain as in this story. He wants to believe otherwise, and, he has the intellectual wherewithal to comprise a million and one reasons in any direction he wishes. But that goes both ways of course as believers disbelieve and so on. It comes from all directions; from the heights of Academia to the innocence of childhood……………..


Both of these have been around for awhile but lend context…………….


This story here.


And this story here.


Since we are not saved according to any personal merit, is it possible that an "elect" non believer could die and go to Heaven where Salvation is fully realized? We know that belief in Christ and an ear for the truth are characteristics of those who are saved in this world, yet who's to say that the untold billions who are beyond the reach of the Gospel are lost? We know many are lost but can we be certain all are?

As a kid of 12-13 I had an amazing experience. I had taken too much cough medicine-terpenhydrate and codein. I am not sure of spelling. The time was late 1957-8. As I remember the event, I "moved" toward indescribable power,force,light and I heard incredible sound. Remember, I was a kid. I had never heard Handel or Bach or, or! This music was the sweetest, purest and highest nonending supended pitch. It surrounded me but it was focused on this being. As if it were trying to separate this best from all the rest. Oh, I wanted to melt into this frame without borders. "Closer-please closer"-knowing full well, I could never go any closer than my position at this moment.And I felt ecstasy.
The offshot of my crazy "experience" happened when I heard familiar women's voices tell me-"GO BACK,YOU ARE TOO YOUNG FOR THIS"- was that I did. But to this day, some 54 years later , I know I came close to God and my whole life and probably death will never be the same.

Ann

I've always been very uncertain about the possibility of near death experiences. This is a very interesting take on it.

If I needed confirmation of the existence of heaven, this would not be enough proof. If I do not need confirmation...It is of no use.

I watched an interview with him. He stated 1) the Divine is love, 2) we still can do wrong things here, 3) our awareness in our current state is like that of an earthworm burried in darkness or a dark state, 4) we cannot do wrong up there, 5) dont' worry, God loves you. Trust in his love, 6) AMAZING music and fields of overpowering sounds/music, 7) it (heaven)is more real than this world we are now in, or it seems that way to him.


Why should you or I believe Dr. Alexander's memories originate from the time his cortex was 'shut off' if he doesn't even say why he believes it?

RonH,

The overall theme is a skeptic, and a skeptic with the intellectual wherewithall to get-it, is saying these sorts of things. Etc.

He's smarter than you in his field: The Brain.

He's a skeptic in another field: God

Now he's a convert of sorts: God Is.

Oddly, he repeats a word quite often in reference to this god: love.

RonH said: Why should you or I believe Dr. Alexander's memories originate from the time his cortex was 'shut off' if he doesn't even say why he believes it?

RonH: What do you think is meant by "his cortex was 'shut off'"?

Before evaluating a claim (and your subsequent question), one must understand the claim.

Son of Adam,

I think Dr. Alexander was told that, at some point, his EEG was a flat line.

Presumably, he was told this after his EEG became normal again.

Now he has some memories.

Why does he think these memories originate from the time his EEG was flat as opposed to some time before that or after.

He doesn't say why he thinks so.

Indeed, how would he tell.

You mention understanding.

What don't you understand?

RonH


Missing question marks. Sorry, should have been

Why does he think these memories originate from the time his EEG was flat as opposed to some time before that or after.?

He doesn't say why he thinks so.

Indeed, how could he tell if he formed a given memory DURING his flat line period as opposed to before or after that?

RonH,

You ask a question regarding why Dr. Alexander believes his memories begin during the coma. That seems like a question only Dr. Alexander can answer. Perhaps he has in other interviews. I would ask of you, what evidence you have that they did not? If you have none, would you agree with me that your skepticism is based, not on medical/physiological evidence/information, but on assumptions that support your a priori skepticism?

In regard to your "sweet dream" hypothesis, dreams have discernible wave patterns, similar to that of someone in stage 1 sleep. I think we can be pretty confident that given he was in a medically monitored coma, that there was no discernible brain activity. So that hypothesis doesn't seem to hold water.

Caleb,

Really? Isn't this quite a stretch - exerperiences of people experimenting with ketamine, cocaine, or GHB? I know that the pentobarbytal often used in medically induced comas is a hallucinogen, but that would require brain activity, which Dr. Alexander reports was absent.

RonH:

Thanks for clarifying the question.

The memories originated either before, during, or after the infectious insult to his brain.

During which of those 3 epochs do you think they originated?

SoA

P.S. You asked: What don't you understand?

Some things I don't understand:

- Higher spatial dimensions implied by string theory and its implications for brane cosmology
- Why is there something rather than nothing
- Hilbert's Sixth Problem
- I don't understand why the neo-atheists strategy of retreating of fallacious appeals to emotion (volitional), rather than rational arguments against God haven't been more widely called out.
- there are many more ...

We know, without ever touching or seeing it, that there is, and always has been, and always will be, that Necessary and Everlasting Free Lunch. It is Self-Evident.

There is no proof that this physician's tale is disingenuous or genuine. We have only the word of a highly educated Skeptic that the tale is genuine. He has all the intellectual wherewithal to discount it. He experiences tremendous peer pressure to do so. He continues, now, to perform his neurosurgical dallies while going on and on about the god who is and who is pure love.


"I just didn’t believe that there was any sort of god who had any kind of personal interest in us....."


That is all this is. It is the eyewitness account of a skeptic.

From his Ivy Tower armchair the skeptic speaks of a god who is and who is unending love:


M-Theory’s mathematically incomprehensible Triune Topography emerges fated to a fabric of Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience. Epistemology itself is laced all through with its own Triune Topography as the Self knows within the Self and within Relation and by Relation and these are so with both the Known and with the Keeps-On-Knowing. Ontology reveals its Triune Topography within Being’s singular and pleural amid the I and the You and the singular I-You for Being itself regresses to Love's embrace among the I and the You wherein the Singular-We streams uncreated. An Uncaused-Cause of the Just-Is type testifying by Self-Evidence that it just is a sort of Everlasting Free Lunch emerges as Necessary regardless of which vectors break through as No-Thing ever escapes Necessity's uncaused IS which forever shouts through all known vectors I-AM. Logic feigns a regress to Self-Evidence and is found sustained quite easily within Epistemology’s Triune Topography. Through all these windows our Uncaused-Cause is Self-Evident as a necessary Everlasting Free Lunch emerging atop a sort of terrain that has multiple yet perfect fronts all of which comprise a singular whole and all available evidence points towards the Immaterial as the source of this Everlasting IS which exacting Necessity inflexibly testifies of. We find in all this that there are strong vectors emerging from the Other and Outer which echo a staunchly Triune, Immaterial, Eternal Uncaused Cause. We find patterns of such a Triune Topography mechanized within the immutable semantics of a perpetual one-way incline in an eternal language comprised of Word’s material manifest wherein Truth precedes Corporeal. In all these things Love’s own Triune Topography casually ebbs and flows quite unobstructed and buoys up illumination of what Necessarily Exists. From Timelessness and into Time and back again into Timelessness these self-evident Triune patterns swallow up whole all of our formulas of infinities, all of our equations of pain, all of our rules of suffering, all of our blueprints of the purely human, all of our diagrams of multi-verses, and all of our prescriptions of the purely inhuman, and in all these the Triune holds fast to the satisfaction of coherence as it houses Multiple Perfect Distincts which effortlessly furnish us with their singular reality laced with ports and bays saturated with Ships that easily set sail and satisfy the demands of all these equations and serenely traverse all ad infinitums. In this set of patterns the entirety of vectors merge unhindered as all threads converge on Love’s Cross within that peculiar Eternally Sacrificed Self in Whom we find Power’s eternal merging of death and life, justice and mercy, law and liberty, wrath and ransom, suffering and joy, Word and Flesh, Truth and Corporeal, Immaterial and Material, God-In-Man and Man-In-God and in Whom both Logic and Love confirm the Triune Topography of Epistemology and of Ontology, of Will and of Love, and even of Perfection itself and thereby brings us to our Necessary End of all Ad Infinitums comprised yet again of those immutable semantics mechanized within that perpetual one-way incline assembled by the eternal language of the Everywhere and Always. Love’s embrace breaks through in the Triune God as in Him the I forever embraces the You and eternally begets the Singular-We. At an infinite speed all these vectors pierce the triad of Mind and Spirit and Body for an inescapable vacuum left in every vector’s wake reaches through eternity’s triune fabric and pulls Generation out of Timelessness and into the fated genesis of granted Will’s motion into the Created Self or into the Uncreated Other whereby the Zeal of the Created plunges The-Now into Time’s Degeneration in which Joy and Pain, Mercy and Justice are hurled into Regeneration’s return to Timelessness. The Zeal of the Uncreated withstands all Offenses for we are Dead, and not only Dead, but embalmed within Regeneration, and not only embalmed within Regeneration but also Alive in Re-Creation’s Delight and these three Ages thrice emerge in Mind, thrice emerge in Body, and thrice emerge in Spirit. Within His embrace my soul awakes to the sound of three harmonious contradictions wherein my soul’s bedrock called Existence testifies of incessant Need which itself testifies of unending Joy as it discovers that though it has but Nothing to offer, and in fact offers up Offense, the Uncreated Beloved declares this soul to be of an everlasting Value. The Uncreated Beloved here Manifests face to face and spreads His arms wide high atop that Tree called Life and pours Himself out and this He does for Love’s I and You and We. These infinite sets of triune patterns of a singular whole freely self-manifesting in these fashions fully account for all that we see, all that we observe, all that we perceive, all that we feel, all that we cry, and all that we scream out as we soar to our highest within Ivy Tower armchairs and as we descend to our lowest stumbling over corpses in all our fields of carnage. Tens of thousands of strong vectors and in fact all vectors whatsoever slice up the skies above our heads with the glaring light of the Truth of all things.

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