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August 06, 2013


Uh...excuse me but "Free Will" is self righteousness. Also, what kind of god would create something and then refuse to control it?

@Dave...the kind of God described in the post.

Well, humans need to thrive BECAUSE of the natural evil. If there weren't natural evil and disease we would be in Heaven. You're left with no other choice because God is screwing with our nature? Must be fun for Him.

Natural evil to think of God? What a bastard. I don't remember my parents making me suffer to think of them. God should be less like a prick and more like a real parent, and maybe then He would be paid more attention to.

The problem of natural evil is irreconcilable unless there are necessary or good reasons for God to permit such evil. If God exists, it is reasonable to believe that He would design a world in which free agency is possible (this is a necessity for true love to be achievable)

So what about the Calvinist view which denies the existence of human free agency? For example, John Piper states that God controls every particle in the universe. Not much room for free will there. Does that mean true love is not achievable in that scenario?


God is true love. True love only exists in humans when God occupies and controls their hearts.

God is true love. True love only exists in humans when God occupies and controls their hearts.

So you disagree with JWW that free agency is a necessity for true love?

It never ceases to astound me how ultimately lame these reasons for the existence of evil are.

    As an example, the same weather systems that create tornadoes that kill humans also create thunderstorms that provide our environment with the water needed for human existence. The same plate tectonics that kill humans (in earthquakes) are necessary for regulation of soils and surface temperatures needed for human existence.

So as an omnipotent, omniscient creature, send everyone a text message in their phones when there is an incoming, earthquake, tsunami or vulcanic eruption. Or simply set some people to be oracles that receive 100% accurate information in their dreams or whatever when catastrophe is about to happen. Adjust air pressure so tornadoes don'd hit populated areas. Create an early warning systems in the skies or in the nature, like flowers that bloom red when earthquake is about to happen. None of this requires that you violate free will. You will in every instance save thousands of lives.

    Humans often rebuild along earthquake fault lines and known hurricane pathways, and they frequently cut corners on building guidelines in order to save money.

Most of these places have been built because people had to get their livelihood from somewhere or had no choice. Is it realistic to expect every Haitian, many people who have been moved there as slaves, to move out of the island of Haiti? Where would they go? Where would the Japanese go? Where would people who have their livelihoods in Tornado Alley go? Where would people who fish for living go to avoid coastal storms?

    Some “Natural Evil” May Be the Result of God’s Nudging God may permit some natural evil because it challenges people to think about God for the first time. For many people, the first prayers or thoughts of God came as the result of some tragedy.

So women who got raped, killed, and mutilated in Ruandan or Congo civil war needed some nudging. Children are murdered constantly because they needed something to think about God. This is simply self-righteous, "the world-revolves-around-us" thinking.

    Some “Natural Evil” May Be the Result of God’s Nurturing God may permit some natural evil because it provides humans with the motivation and opportunity to develop Godly character.

Again, simply self-righteous assertion. How do these women who get raped, mutilated, burned alive, or skinned benefit ftom this "nurturing"? How do child soldiers killed in action? The tragedies of the world do not revolve around Christians or Christianity.


Galatians 5:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [j]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Sooo, If you remove the Spirit, what is left that would choose to love God?

Physical, or Natural, Evil is a prerequisite for many morally significant choices.

When Brutus stabbed Caesar, that act was moral evil. But the suffering from the wound that Caesar had as a result was not moral evil. That was physical evil. So also was the death that the wound brought about. It was just as much physical evil as if Caesar had been mortally pierced by a sharp piece of falling rock.

Were God to prevent all physical evil, then He would have to make it the case that when Brutus stabbed Caesar, it did not cause a wound. Or the wound it caused was healed over so quickly that Caesar didn't even notice it, let alone suffer from it. And certainly it would not have killed him.

And so it would have to be with all stabbings, mortal or even merely painful. Indeed, so it would have to be for all piercings by any cause human or non-human. Knives would have to turn into noodles, falling rocks into dandelions, before piercing anyone.

Where then is the evil of stabbing someone, or the good in refraining? How would Brutus ever form the opinion that stabbing Caesar would be a way to kill him? Indeed, how would the idea of murdering Caesar even be possible? For no cause of death could ever be known. In fact, no cause of suffering could ever be known. In fact, where would Brutus even get the idea of death or suffering. It would be wholly outside his experience.

And so, what choice would Brutus actually face?


The possibility of many moral choices requires the actuality of physical evil.

There seems to be one exception to these kinds of cases, where the mere possibility of physical evil will do. The exception exists where the person facing the moral choice has a trustworthy authority that has warned him of bad consequences that will follow from certain actions.

The individual facing the choice has no experience of the bad consequences, let alone of their tendency to follow from the forbidden actions.

But he does have the word of the authority.

The individual so informed has the capability to choose to faithfully obey the authority's warning, or unfaithfully ignore it. And that is a morally significant choice.

In other words, the one possibility of significant moral choice without actual antecedent physical evil (but with the mere possibility of such), is precisely the sort of condition that existed before the Fall.


Of course agency among, amid Self and Other and that which these within embrace necessarily beget, the singular E Pluribus Unum, exists in Love's Triune.

Do you suppose God's motion into the Pure, Isolated Self can give something less than All Sufficiency? Less than I- AM?

Do you suppose any Created's motion into the pure, isolated self can give something more than In-Sufficiency?

You do not know what love "is", as it just is a triune landscspe, and, you think that there is such a thing as God-And.

There is only Love's Triune; and Man is fashioned in His Image.

That is why "evil" and "volition" and "choices" and "love" and "good" seem to you but a series of disconnects.

But for the Triune God such things would be disconnects.

But: God is love.

Love tells us that as love grows cold and as the thing we call Time nears its end, evil will grow hotter. All sorts of evils..... earthquakes, pestilence, tornadoes, diseases, floods, famines, fear, hate, wars, killings, sea life dying out.

He is not giving us these scorpions as we cry for bread. These are but love's void in Time.

He gives us Bread, which is Himself.

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