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Posted by Gregory Koukl on September 09, 2013 at 03:30 AM in :Greg Koukl, Theology, Video | Permalink
The story of Job is really about not questioning authority, no matter how outrageous that authority might behave. These are messages designed by men to enhance their own authority, not messages from God. These are stories made up by men to intimidate other men into following them blindly.
September 09, 2013 at 10:20 AM
September 09, 2013 at 10:39 AM
I puzzled over the question that Greg pondered. And the point is ...? If we by our sinful rebellious rejection of God we feel we have effectively banished God from life, are we implying such a status is acceptable to God, who is separate from sin anyway?
September 09, 2013 at 10:44 AM
It's amazing that in the 21rst Century we still have people who believe in absurdities like Satan. Where's the evidence for such a being? Of course none exists. Christians believe what they do because they are afraid not to.
September 09, 2013 at 11:12 AM
Boris, a man in serious need of redemption. Do pray for him.
September 09, 2013 at 11:33 AM
More ridicule wrapped up within indifference from Bore-Us.
"Unsophisticated hostility towards Christianity doesn’t necessarily imply insularity, but it has a lot to say about it. Not only is it quite boring, but there’s a special form of ignorance that covers up behind this sort of blind-secularism. The blindness I’m referring to is the blindness to the humanity on the other side. Blind to the flesh and blood part. It’s a form of social awkwardness. When this ignorance peeks out, it reveals its dysfunction."
September 09, 2013 at 01:36 PM
Job is a poem, not history.
September 09, 2013 at 01:53 PM
"Job is a poem, not history"
A minoity position, one not held by the historic church, brgulker. Care to demonstate with some reasonable proof, and thus a reason why you'd provide us with your opinion as though it's an obvious fact?
Brad B |
September 09, 2013 at 05:26 PM
Jesus, Word’s Corporeal, tells Peter that Satan has requested access to Peter, to sift him.
Now, how is it that Uncreated Love never changes, yet, Man awakes to find himself inside of an ever-changing some-thing?
Well, that is quite easy to address should the need arise.
Of course Job is historically accurate, poetry or not. We need not fear this side of actualization. Whatever we think the phrase vivid perception entails in the idol called Ouside-Of-God, we can rest assured that inside of God our actualizations will entail far more vivid perception, and of far greater distances.
As for being in God’s presence, the geography surrounding Genesis 3:16 morphs to Psalms 139:8, and that morphs to John 3:16, and that morphs to Revelations 12:10. ~~Thank you God~~
September 10, 2013 at 03:31 AM
The motions we perceive as Time's tences comprising Change's Pains are unavoidable given Love's Triune wherein we find everlasting Dying , evetlasting Resurrection , and unchanging Begetting. There is no motion the Self can choose in Eden by which In-Sufficiency can escape necessary Change, and thus Time's Pain. Man in privation or Man-In-God cannot avoid Love's landscape. Outside of Eden is but less, not more. All our vividness of perceiving here will be necessarily far surpassed within our approach to Love's Proximity, as Time gives way to Timeless.
September 11, 2013 at 04:39 AM
The sheer costliness, the sheer distance of Love's Motions are in our privation unperceptable in our blindness in this privation, which Satan calls "light", and some believe him, which is but Dark, into which Love comes, thus Debased, which cannot be otherwise. How but by His emptying shall we be filled, first glorified? All these motions of Love's topography are inescapable whether we find in Eden Man in privation or Man-In-God, Word made Flesh. Love's Triune Image is Power's Will, and cannot be otherwise. Eden's obedience gives but more in all vectors, not less, whether of pouring out, or of filling up, in all these raw distances, as Love's Eternally Sacrificed Self is in all vectors our Beholding and our Becoming.
September 11, 2013 at 05:01 AM
In all our storms we have Love's Hand wrapped tight around us, Who Alone can bind the strongman and restore, to the full, all thus stolen. He Himself is no foreigner to Dying, for Love pours out the Self unchangingly, and Knows more, Sees more than we. Destruction is where we in mourning end, where He in gladness begins. All things He makes anew. Hope in Him finds its End. Faith in Him finds it End. Love carries on unchanging, faith and hope left behind, having found felicity. All which Love pours out is found alive again in reciprocity's Beloved thus Filled, as Two are now One.
September 11, 2013 at 05:28 AM
Greg, you make several good points. God, who is omnipresent, is surrounded by sin because we are here. Thanks be to God for sending Jesus to redeem us thru his death and resurrection. We struggle with our sin nature all our life as God calls us into holiness and we make choices-to follow God by choosing virtue or to reject God by choosing sin. Confession, repentance, contrition and forgiveness. We have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling by knowing our sin, not God's ability to be around our sin or not.
Another interesting point, you mention the error that the statement invokes. Error leads to heresy (which is a loaded word but one from which God guards the Truths of the Church.) Let us be watchful and call out wrong teaching as error and heresy lest it be passed down as "mistakes". Shalom!
Happy Catholic |
September 11, 2013 at 05:49 PM
Faith, trust, in God, in something Other, outside of one’s self and one’s own tapestry of immediate experience inside these painful skins, is comprised of that oxymoron we know as labor and perseverance which are, in actuality, the motion of, not production, but of resting, of trusting, of abandoning. Job had Faith. What sort of Faith? The Self-Abdicating sort, though none in that Ministry of Death (what scripture calls the Old Covenant), none in that hell on earth in which Man finds himself outside of God (hell defined), yet in the presence of God, ever are one-with-God, or, inside of God. Man can bang his head all day long against that Closed Door and it shall not open. Man-In-Isolation, Man in Privation simply cannot, though he knocks all day, hoping, waiting, trusting, even unto death, return to Eden simply because he knows the truth that God is God. Satan knows that. Satan believes that. Satan too is in God’s presence, though forever outside of God. Job had faith unto death, though the Lord slay me, yet Him will I praise. My hope is, even unto an unrighteous death, in Him. There comes a point wherein the Self, every Self, will confront in what are to us unsearchable avenues that which is before every Created Self from Genesis to Revelations: Self-Abdication, Trust, You-And-Not-I. Such is Faith. Such is Trust.
There is One Self who can declare Self-Sufficiency ipso facto, void of any need of any amalgamations to be All-Sufficient, that Great-I-AM who Alone can shout I! and yield but Life.
And here we find Man in Need, though he believes, though he trusts, though he knocks against the Door which he knows is the only Door worth knocking on. Outside of God there in that Ministry of Death wherein Satan and Man roam around inside that hell on earth we find no hope for Man. The Law of Moses? Hopeless and that intended on God’s end. The Old Man cannot enter into God’s Timeless Self, and can only, if tit-for-tat permit, be juxtaposed along side of, here within Time, God’s Timeless Self. And of course tit-for-tat never can despite effort unto death by force pull God down into Man, cannot by force pull Man up into God. Such is nonsense, despite our trust unto death. It is not Man’s Hope nor his Faith there in that Ministry of Death which saves him: nothing saves him. The best Man can hope for in that hell on earth is a kind of juxtaposition along side of God, ever dancing between God’s favor and God’s wrath, tit-for-tat ad infinitum.
We chose hell on earth. God-Less some-thing. We believed that the Self in Privation, Privatized Good, Man in Privation, had more to offer us than Man-In-God, God-In-Man, had to offer us. Word Made Flesh, Incarnation, Man-In-God, God-In-Man, is the key, the only key which can unlock these doors and permit those necessary motions by which Man can be, not with God, but in God.
Nothing Man does can do this, force this. Nothing. Just as nothing in Eden is contingent on man’s choices as Love’s Eternally Sacrificed Self is inevitable in Beholding and Becoming in all directions whether Man obey or disobey, so too we find now here that, with Christ’s Work, nothing in our salvation is contingent on us, and Faith in God, Hope in God, even unto death --- which Man’s experience has never been void of --- even in the Old Man, is not what saves us, not what forces open the Door, but, rather, it is Love Himself, Ransom Himself, Who not only opens the Door, but is Himself the Door. What can be a Door into God but God’s Own Skin? Faith in God, even unto death, in that Ministry of Death, in that hell on earth, cannot save a man, cannot bring Man into God. The work of our salvation has been done, utterly, by God Alone. The Sabbath Rest is the work we must now do, we must, and here is the oxymoron: labor to rest. Perpetually Self-Abdicate and follow Love’s Eternally Sacrificed Self into Gethsemane’s motions. It is utter trusting in, resting in Other and not Self. Now, that motion of trust is necessary and yet not sufficient. My trust, my faith, is not sufficient? Yet necessary? Of course. Man has always housed the experience of trusting in the One True God unto death, yet, Man has not always housed the experience of Man-In-God, God-In-Man, Word Made Flesh. The very real Faith of Hebrews 11 knocks, but does not enter-in-to. Not everyone has faith in God, then nor now, and, many have faith in God, then and now. Faith is absolutely not sufficient. ”And”, it is absolutely necessary.
It is God, and God Alone, Who locks and unlocks Doors, Who unbinds and binds up the strongman, Who saves us.
If you tell me you trust in the One True God, even unto an unrighteous death, even, say, should that One True God Himself slay you, yet do you trust in Him, I will tell you that such is necessary to see God, but not sufficient.
There is only One Who is All-Sufficient. In-Sufficiency has no hope, no matter what it does, not matter what it trusts in. In-Sufficiency’s only hope is that Love’s Eternally Sacrificed All-Sufficient-Self spread His arms wide, and pour Himself out, and into, In-Sufficiency.
The Dying God is the only coherent system known to Man, to In-Sufficiency, and is ipso facto In-Sufficiency’s only hope.
The Door is now open. Because Love Himself, and no other, has opened it.
Job is a demonstration of what is necessary, but not sufficient, to exit the hell on earth that is the Ministry of Death inside of the Pain that is Time’s Change and enter into God’s Own Timeless, Changeless Self. Those of Hebrews 11, who scripture tells us had….. faith….. longed to see the day………….
September 12, 2013 at 03:56 AM
"Choose you this day" is thus, we find, both then and now, no "con". Volitional trust, always present, has not always had the One Door of Love Himself availed to it. We chose that too, that "outside of God", that hell on earth. Like Satan.
September 12, 2013 at 04:23 AM
Nothing is contingent on Man from Genesis 1:1 to infinity. God's Triune landscape of volitional motions, His Image, willed by Power to exist in Man, exists in Man. Nothing can thwart Power's Will. All that exists exists by Him. Love never cons man when He states, "Choose ye...." Nothing man does or has, even his own volitional (gifted, willed, by God) faith, can save Man. Only Love's Eternally Sacrificed Self saves, changes, amalgamates, Man.
September 12, 2013 at 08:11 AM
Hmmm...... how about we swap my use of "oxymoron" for a better word: paradox. Apologies for that oversight.
September 12, 2013 at 02:40 PM
The problem isn't that God can't be in the presence of sin. The problem is that we cannot be in the presence of God.
Jared Berryman |
September 12, 2013 at 07:37 PM
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