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November 11, 2013

Comments

I always appreciate the comments you put forth here, Greg, and this is no exception. I wonder if you could expound a bit more on the social and cultural implications of SSM in a terse way with specific talking points so we might be armed for that? The abortion subject was covered well and I'm grateful for the expansion of the thought you presented back to the person who says he/she personally feels it's wrong but can't force others to embrace that view.

What about Christians that argue that abortion is actually morally correct? I used some of the thoughts that you've already posted throughout the site, but I don't think it caused a dent (and my friends got deeply offended). I think what is happening with some Christians is that conservative Christians have been on the wrong side of quite a few issues, and now some formerly conservative Christians are realizing this. So instead of being more critical of certain things and supportive of others, they support the whole liberal paradigm from a Christian perspective (you must be either/or). Unfortunately, both the American liberal and conservative paradigms are both unbiblical and I can't stand with either. I guess I should have pointed this out and perhaps it would have made a difference in our discussion.

JB,

What about Christians that argue that abortion is actually morally correct?

What about them? Do you mean Christians that actually think abortion is the right “choice”? As in, if given the choice, the right thing to do is abort your child? I don’t know too many Christians that hold that view. Or do you mean the moral and Biblical thing to do is to let people decide whether or not to abort their unborn child?

I used some of the thoughts that you've already posted throughout the site, but I don't think it caused a dent (and my friends got deeply offended).

Sometimes people will be offended. There’s not much you can do about it. What about you taking offense? Is it fair for you to be offended with their views? Or are they the only ones that get to be offended?

I think what is happening with some Christians is that conservative Christians have been on the wrong side of quite a few issues…

Just curious; which issues would those be?

Unfortunately, both the American liberal and conservative paradigms are both unbiblical and I can't stand with either.

Always be on guard against classifications. Always be on guard against those that hate classifications.

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Carolyn,

I wonder if you could expound a bit more on the social and cultural implications of SSM in a terse way with specific talking points so we might be armed for that?

It's difficult to know what will happen to the culture. I don't think the Bible gives us any information other than to say it's something we should avoid practicing.

We know that exchanging the truth for a lie isn't something we ought to willfully extol, and to the extent that an individual ignores this truth they will suffer greatly for it even if the culture as a whole suffers very little. See Romans 1:18 and beyond.

"How do we deal with that?"

You could start by not saying something condescending like "it should be clear if you are a Christ follower and familiar with the bible."

I was opposed to homosexual practice until I learned Greek and studied Romans and Corinthians. I guarantee you I am "more familiar with the bible" than 99% of conservative Christians who oppose homosexuals.

There are a lot of ways to be delusional.

@SteveK: I agree with the Biblical position, I just wanted some specific target points to offer regarding SSM for those who get into debates with folks who find no objection to it. I know, of course, that this has been covered in a variety of threads and posts, I guess I was looking for something encapsulated to carry around in my head!

brgulker, Have you ever wondered why it took 2000 years to find out the Bible doesn't really condemn homosexual relations? Everyone has been absolutely certain until just a few decades ago as to how those passages should be translated. How did you get it right and everyone else has been so wrong? Or perhaps people today are seeing what they want to see.

Any way to delete these odd spam messages above????

@ChrisB--I often wonder at that same question! It seems that suddenly this whole crop of newly "enlightened" people have discovered that they've got the great moral issues all wrapped up and the rest of us are in the dark ages, still holding on to the traditional, ages-old understanding of Scripture.

Delusional, deluded, blinded and arrogant--they march to the beat of a drummer who tickles their ears, feeds their self-interest, enflames their passions, and buys their souls.

Or maybe these issues/ideas have been dealt with more privately in the past, and now technological advances and social media are putting them front and center. Whatever it is, welcome to the world in which we've been chosen by God to be born and serve.

The 21st century response by believers is going to have to be relational, led by love, and filled with a whole lot less rhetoric. I am deeply convicted that Christians should NOT be quick to take offense, we should NOT be smug in our righteousness, divisive, 'our way or the highway' or allow these two topics raised above to get us off track in speaking the Gospel with others. On these topics there is a danger of getting sidelined by something more akin to politics than soul winning. The Gospel should come first. God will sort out the rest.

The 21st century response by believers is going to have to be relational, led by love, and filled with a whole lot less rhetoric.
It’s not either or. When you say “rhetoric,” you mean “pro-life rhetoric". So what then? Was just “loving” the solution to the abolition of slavery? Yes, it turns out some Christians say put a sock in it regarding abortion. “Just love” they say.

How about advising others on how they ought to vote? No, that’s out of bounds. “Just love” they say. For many, “just love” is code for, “just shut up about abortion already and vote with me”. Not all, but too many to count. Way too many to count.

I am deeply convicted that Christians should we should NOT…..be divisive, 'our way or the highway' or allow these two topics raised above to get us off track in speaking the Gospel with others.

Abortion is divisive. (Christianity is divisive for that matter - see Matthew 10). Some people think it's okay to kill unborn babies, others don't. It divides people. There is no avoiding this.

On these topics there is a danger of getting sidelined by something more akin to politics than soul winning.

Over 50 million abortions performed since 1973 – and we’re told by Christians it’s more “akin to politics”.

And "politics" has absolutely no bearing on why pro-life Christians are told to pipe down, right?

ChrisB,
I'm always very wary of new interpretations of scripture. If there is a new way to interpret, there should be a new reason to support it. brgulker's new reason for the new interpretation is that he figured out how to read and understand Greek. Well, that's not new. People have been reading and understanding Greek for centuries.

Quote of the Year: "It's easier to flow through life agreeing with the masses instead of being the odd-person out."

I would hazard a guess and say that this is THE root of 99% of what we see in church-ianity today...

Yup! Spines like jellyfish!

Hi Carolyn,

I guess I was looking for something encapsulated to carry around in my head!

I think most everyone will agree with the latter part of my comment, and perhaps those words encapsulate the meat of the argument without having to argue over what *might* happen to the culture in the future. Just admit that nobody knows future details and the timing, and move on to the main question: the morality of SSM. Here again is what I said above.

We know that exchanging the truth for a lie isn't something we ought to willfully extol, and to the extent that an individual ignores this truth they will suffer greatly for it even if the culture as a whole suffers very little.

Thank you, SteveK.--I will try to follow that suggestion; it makes sense to me, but the untold number of "Christians" who do not even see truth in the Biblical warnings against homosexuality is heartbreaking. And the "logic" used for their reasoning is so disheartening. Clearly, they don't see it as "exchanging the truth for a lie"; they view our stance as uninformed and theirs are enlightened

Carolyn,

Clearly, they don't see it as "exchanging the truth for a lie"; they view our stance as uninformed and theirs are enlightened.

This is good because it gets to one of the key points you eventually need to ask them - "how do you know this?". Can they cite scripture in conjunction with some longstanding Christian tradition, or scripture in conjunction with some newly discovered, and relevant, truth? In other words, what is the source of their enlightenment?

Great reply, SteveK! You're absolutely right--that IS the crux of the issue. Yes. Well done!

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