« Agreement with Ehrman | Main | Gnosticism and Kabbalah in Aronofsky's Noah »

April 02, 2014


Such people only have power as long as they are allowed to have power.

One day people will realize they are being bullied, and we'll see an end to sexual McCarthyism.

Dan McLaughlin (@baseballcrank on Twitter) is right when he describes the Seven Stages of Liberal Legal Activism:

1. It's a free country, X should not be illegal.
2. The Constitution prohibits X from being made illegal.
3. If the Constitution protects a right to X, how can it be immoral? Anyone who disagrees is a bigot.
4. If X is a Constitutional right, how can we deny it to the poor? Taxpayer money must be given to people to get X.
5. The Constitution requires that taxpayer money be given to people to get X.
6. People who refuse to participate in X are criminals.
7. People who publicly disagree with X are criminals.

"How is this affecting our LGBT brothers and sisters?"

1 Cor 6:9-11 yields this a self-defeating statement: I have no LGBT brothers and sisters. I have brothers and sisters who USED to be LGBT, and are no longer, praise God.

You can look at this issue at least two ways. One secular view is that a huge LGBT movement is taking place. They are gaining support politically because they are a huge spending force.

Looking it from a Christian perspective: There is a huge judgement from God taking place, turning people over to reprobate minds, resulting in homosexuality and other damnable choices. Those who see it this way are also a huge spending force and should consider where they spend.

Homosexual marriage is not a peripheral issue. It is but one aspect of a fundamental principle of human morality: Does God define the laws of sex or does man?

Do Christians want to be identified with their opposition to the corruption of marriage? Heb 13:4

Unity for the sake of unity is not Christianity.

Christians are to love the people of the world but not to love everything they say or believe or be united with them.

The whole World Vision controversy I think has its roots in the fact that churches have been letting people into the churches thinking they don't have to change their ideas or behaviour to be considered Christians. The fact they are leaving because they don't like Christian teachings begs the question, "Were they Christians at all?"

I am finding this out more and more in discussions on the topic-until I give 100% approval and nothing less, I am of necessity hateful and bigoted.. No matter how much I seek to be an ambassador, it doesn't matter if I even entertain the idea that homosexual practice might be sin. That's not going to stop me from seeking to actively love people who embrace the homosexual lifestyle, but I also refuse to waver on the truth, no matter how far this goes.

CEO of Mozilla stepped down due to people offended that he donated to the wrong group.

We are open, inclusive, and tolerant...until you disagree with our views. Then it means goodbye.

That's really what they should have said.

Folks: gay men and women are not motivated out of hatred of God. This isn't about trying to "tick of daddy". We love who we love.

I've been with my partner for three years. Some difficult times, some joyous ones. This is about a relationship with another human being, not just about sex (which is a trivial percentage of our time together).

How you see malice or evil in this, I have no idea.

You have been able to grant compassion and grace to divorced heterosexuals in your congregations despite the stern condemnation of divorce by Christ Himself. Why can't you extend this same understanding to gay couples?


Please understand this, the Bible commands all to repent. Repentance is a change of mind which leads to a changed way of living. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11a, " Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.And such were some of you." Please take note of this last verse, 'such WERE some of you'; this is what repentance looks like. You turn away from your sins, you leave them.
The Apostle Paul says we are flee sexual immorality {vs. 18}; that includes any sexual activity outside the ordained marriage of one man and one woman {see Genesis 2:24}. How is the church to deal with those caught up in sin, those who refuse to forsake their sin? 1 Corinthians 5 tells us 'For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." Unfortunately, church discipline is seldom practiced today.
As for divorce, there are situations where divorce is indeed granted by God. Yes, many abuse this and divorce on unbiblical grounds; those who do so should be handled according to the biblical guidelines. Trying to justify your sins by pointing to others will not free you from God's judgment. Christ died for the ungodly; He suffered, shed His blood and gave Himself so sinners may be reconciled back to God, who is thrice-holy. He did NOT die so you can stay in your sins! "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!" Romans 6:1-2a. Peter warns us as well in 1 Peter 1:14-15, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct." You simply cannot practice willful sin and enter God's kingdom. "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." 1 John 3:8
May the Almighty be gracious to you, may He open your eyes to your own evil, your sins that you love so dearly. May He cause you to cry out as the tax collector in Luke 18 did, 'O God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' There is hope for sinners through the death, burial and resurrection of God's own Son. You are sinning against God; your sin is an abomination to Him {Lev. 18:22}. However, God is merciful, He saves those who are brokenhearted over their sins. May He cause you to see your own wickedness, and grant you understanding.

Lyn writes: "You simply cannot practice willful sin and enter God's kingdom"

Perhaps, but that's just it: I don't see all expressions of homosexuality to be sinful. I can't repent of something I don't believe is a sin. Stealing? Sure. Selfishness? Certainly. Loving someone of the same gender? Nope.

Is your conscience clean? Maybe it is. However, do you suppose you could have offended God without knowing it? If salvation is predicated upon "good behavior", you're cooked, whether you know about the sin or not.

Most fundamentalists don't question the salvation of most of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention, mostly because of their "good theology". Nevertheless, these men founded the denomination primarily as a means of ensuring the continuation of the American slave trade (which often was based on racism and unjust kidnapping).

Are these men "saved" or not? If saved, how is it possible to engage in what we see today as obvious evil and still be saved while committed gay Christians cannot be? This is not coherent.

"I don't see all expressions of homosexuality to be sinful. "

Is being saved a matter of whether you feel you are good enough?

On Judgement Day, if God going to say "As long as you feel comfortable with your life, welcome in."?

You seem to be confusing loving as an emotion and loving as engaging in a physical act.

Only full 100% approval of homosexuality and SSM will do. That's the price the church will have to pay to satisfy the culture.

This is a misc characterization. We are not trying to satisfy culture. We are trying to be true to our conscience and morals.

Massive, enormous difference.

T asks: "Is being saved a matter of whether you feel you are good enough?"

Honestly, T, who knows. Is salvation based on faith in Christ or your actions as well? If your actions, are you saying that one must reach moral perfection before one dies? If not ... what degree of sinfulness can you have and still be saved? Which sins can you commit and still be allowed in the door? I don't have a solid answer. No one does. John Calvin was a thug who was responsible for the torture and death of other Christians, yet no one questions his salvation, either.

One can only abide by their conscience and let the chips fall where they may. Got a better alternative?

I Corinthians 6:9 according to several translations:

New International Version
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

New Living Translation
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,

English Standard Version
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

New American Standard Bible
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

King James Bible
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,

International Standard Version
You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

NET Bible
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals,

I don't think you can truthfully claim faith in Christ and at the same time say there is no way to know whether you should just do whatever feels right because no one really knows if he cares what you do.

@T: I'm not saying do "whatever feels good". I'm saying abide by your conscience. Even this is not always easy to do. We all fail to even live up to our own values.

What alternative is there? Do things you believe are wicked or not do things you don't believe are evil merely because Scripture says to avoid them?

The Bible says that to divorce your spouse for any reason other than infidelity is to commit adultery. Are women who leave abusive men who are beating them and/or their children acting out of malice or selfishness? I don't. They're acting according to their understanding of right and wrong.

The greatest commandment is to "love" God... If God is the righteous standard bearer then loving him implies loving his standards. It is clear that his standards make no room for homosexual relationships anymore then an aldulterous one.

To use "love" to justify homosexuality is short-sighted and misses the mark. People "love" many different things but that doesn't provide necessary justification for their actions.

I had an adulterous relationship. I really thought I "loved" this other person - And I am not saying that lightly. However, it was 100 percent wrong and "sinful" and something that I will have to live with for the rest of my life. Could I honestly say that "love" was my justification to engage in this sinful behavior? Absolutely not. And by the way, my spouse and I were having some really difficult times. Sin is sin. God's standards are his standards. Repent and turn your heart to him who has the power to save. To engage in a same sex relationship is not within his standards.

The truly amazing thing is God will forgive a repentant heart and repentence applies to everyone - Christian or not. The more people try to justify sinful behavior, the more these behaviors are "normalized," the fewer "Christians" there will be. I wish it weren't so but the road that leads to life is narrow for a reason.

We must love each other but never at the expense of Truth.

BTW - I repented of my sin and God (and my wife) were gracious enough to forgive me. I am now going on my nineteenth year of marriage. I am grateful that God is the only moral foundation upon which we can anchor ourselves. God doesn't allow us to make the rules...and for good reason....

It seems the confusion comes with the term 'love'. Homosexuals equate their loving relationships as being acceptable because, like heterosexuals, they do love their partner. God's word shows that homosexual relationships are not even based on love, they are based on lust. From Romans 1:27, "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly" Lust is birthed in the thought life/heart, this is where sin forms. This lust they have is a burning one, it consumes them. Strongs defines 'burned' as 'inflame deeply'. This is NOT a normal feeling or emotion, this is a driving force to pursue and satisfy one's passion/lust; which brings us to the next key word , 'lust'. Here lust is defined as 'a craving, eager desire, longing for'. It's 'orexis' in the Gr. The root word for orexis is oregomai, defined by Strong's as 'to stretch oneself, that is, reach out after (long for): - covet after, desire. To sum it up, this is a self-centered desire where one lusts after another and wants the object of their desire for 'self'. How does the Bible define love? Love is never centered on self, it seeks to give 'self' to others. For example, John 3:16, 'For God so loved the world, that He - what?- He 'gave'. Here is a picture of true love. That is not how we see homosexuality described in the Bible.

James, you said, 'Perhaps, but that's just it: I don't see all expressions of homosexuality to be sinful. I can't repent of something I don't believe is a sin.' The Bible proves you wrong James, even in the infant stages of sin- the 'thought life'- homosexuality is sin. There simply isn't one verse in all of the Bible that says it's okay to lust after the same sex, to desire them, to live with them as a 'couple', or to marry. You don't have a biblical argument to back your feelings. I will warn you that your thinking it's okay stems from your own mind; the Bible warns us about the corruption of the human mind. Look at Jeremiah 17:9 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?'
The 'heart' here references to the mind, the thought life, the seat of understanding, reasoning, etc. Your mind is deceitful, meaning 'crooked, polluted'. Your mind is also desperately wicked, which means 'incurable, sick'. So, God's word tells us that the natural mind is polluted by the disease of sin, and unable to rightly discern and reason. Can you see the danger in putting your trust in your own understanding/reasoning? The mind will always steer towards evil because by nature, all of mankind are born sinners - loving sin and hating God.

If you still love your sin of homosexuality and seek to justify it, that shows that God has not regenerated you, you have not been born again. You are under God's wrath. The Bible commands repentance, a forsaking of sin. Only a heart that's been changed by God can and will flee sin. Your greatest need is God's grace and mercy. Jesus Christ died for the ungodly, He was buried, and rose from the grave victoriously. But NOT so we could remain in sin and continue to be enslaved by it. Christ frees His people from sins' bondage. The tax collector saw his need for salvation, it caused him to cry out for God's mercy. May the Lord do the same for you James.

Lyn writes: "God's word shows that homosexual relationships are not even based on love, they are based on lust"

Do you know me personally? Have we met? I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but don't you think it's a bit insulting to denigrate a relationship that I've had for over three years when you have no idea who we are?

Tell me something: do people cosign for car loans, putting their own assets at risk, for "lust"? Do people remain in a monogamous relationship out of "lust"? Do people stay with their prostitutes in the hospital when those prostitutes are injured? Nope. Yet, all of these things have been part of our relationship.

"You don't have a biblical argument to back your feelings."

Neither did the abolitionists who advocated the end of the slave trade. In fact, the slave traders had far more verses to justify their continuation of their practices. Slavery had the endorsement of the apostles in the Didache. It was part of the only constitution to have (allegedly) emanated from God. It was approved by Paul. It was the reason for the creation of the Southern Baptists.

Use your minds, folks. You can either believe that slavery is moral while divorcing an abusive spouse is an egregious offense to God, or you can utilize rationality and develop a coherent sense of ethics that doesn't lump committed gay relationships into the same boat as pedophilia and adultery.

It wasn't a personal attack on you, rather, it was God's word showing you what's in your heart. I recall the sewer God pulled me from, that sewer included the sin of lesbianism.
As for the rabbit trail of divorce, that has not one thing to do with homosexuality. You are trying to divert people away from your sin. Don't forget what the Bible says about the human heart as well as the depravity of it {see Romans 1} Minds that are unregenerate cannot rationalize spiritual matters.
The rabbit trail of slavery is also irrelevant; by the way, God does NOT endorse slavery James.

Let's try to stay on topic, we are discussing homosexuality. The bible is clear, God will judge you for your sins, 1 Cor. 69-10 has already been given to you. Leviticus 18:22 is another text that states your sin is an abomination to God. Instead of diverting from your sin of homosexuality, may you be broken over it by God. Christ makes it clear, you cannot live in homosexual sin and enter God's kingdom.


When you stand before the throne of God, He isn't going to ask you what you thought about divorce of slavery. He's going to judge you on YOUR sins. He has given you His word that speaks out against homosexuality and clearly says it is sin. You will be without excuse James. You will not dare take the Almighty down a 'rabbit trail'. Listen to what's been given you, whether or not you think you love your same sex partner is really irrelevant. God has spoken, He states your immoral perversion is sin. His word points to sin, prayerfully, that will drive you to the cross of Christ. Flee sexual immorality! {1 Cor. 6:18} You certainly will NOT be able to 'reason' away your sins before a thrice holy God, for He detests all sin and must judge sin because He is holy and righteous. There are no loopholes in the high court of heaven James.

Of course there is no middle ground. The phrasing of the debate is meant to remove any possibility of middle ground.

If you do not mind vulgar language and verbal imagery, search Youtube for iEmanuella.

I will not post an actual link, as I don't think the moderators would condone such language used by commentors, but it does illustrate that in the discussion on sexual mores, it isn't just the "fundy christians" who are polarizing the issue.

One video shows activist Masha Gessen making the statement that marriage should not exist and that fighting for same sex marriage involves lying (her words) about what they plan to do.

@Disappointed: If Masha Gessen speaks for all gay people (I've never heard of her), then Fred Phelps speaks for all Christians. Deal?

@Lyn: I apparently hit a sore spot with you. I don't know what your life consisted of as a lesbian for you to call it a "cesspool". Perhaps there was promiscuity, drug use or relational abuse. Whatever the case may be, don't make assumptions about the way other people just because you lived it.

This isn't about me avoiding the topic. I bring up these other issues to point to the fact that Christians who claim to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture have come to conclusions that are in direct conflict with centuries of Christian tradition (slavery, contraception and divorce being some of them) and the plain letter of Scripture. You don't get to rewrite history to pretend it's something it isn't.

"If Masha Gessen speaks for all gay people (I've never heard of her), then Fred Phelps speaks for all Christians. Deal?"

When people stop telling me that I agree with Phelps simply for not being an atheist, perhaps. :P Were they not invited to the Reason Rally as a representative of Christianity while other groups were being told that security would remove them if they tried to attend? Besides, I did not say she spoke for all.

I am more interested in comments in response to some of the videos where negative reaction to requests that someone commit suicide or is raped is considered lack of understanding of how criticism works by wrongly labeling it an attack when it is merely a statement that the posted opinion was not shared and that is proof that Christians are too thin skinned to be in the public square.

Regardless of the percentage of people who actually hold these views, this is clearly an attempt to try to remove any middle ground from the debate by removing any moderate voices. In modern US culture, it does not take a lot of people to make political change. Even if a majority of people vote to accept something, it only takes a small group to overturn it.

"I bring up these other issues to point to the fact that Christians who claim to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture have come to conclusions that are in direct conflict with centuries of Christian tradition (slavery, contraception and divorce being some of them) and the plain letter of Scripture. You don't get to rewrite history to pretend it's something it isn't."

Simply coming up with conclusions which contradict centuries of tradition is irrelevant, unless you can show that your conclusions are more accurately portraying God's position than the tradition.

Otherwise, I might as well believe Tom Horn and believe that the world is run by fallen angels who are planning to publicly impersonate aliens to impose a new world religion and is using biotechnology to genetically engineer bodies to resurrect the Nephilim, all based on the statement that the end times will be just like the days of Noah.

No sore spot at all James, you just keep trying to divert away from your sin. Why do I call the sin of lesbianism a cesspool? God calls it even worse than that James, He calls what you are doing, having sex with men, an abomination. Strong's Hebrew definitions defines 'abomination' as 'something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence'. What you do is repulsive to God James, your sexual behavior is NOT acceptable to God. I am not ignoring the issues you bring up, slavery, divorce, etc. However, those issues aren't your problem are they? Your problem is with your sin of homosexuality. That is the topic at hand. However others who profess to be Christian handle divorce is not my nor your problem is it?
No attempt is being made here to rewrite history, just a continual attempt by you to divert from your sin James, YOUR sin of sexual perversion. Your sin is what needs to be addressed here. God will hold YOU accountable for your sins against Him. You won't be accountable for anyone else's sins, just your own.

I made no assumptions James, rather, I gave you the teachings of God's word, but you falsely accuse me of making assumptions because the truth causes you so much discomfort, you MUST direct your hatred towards someone else...so you seek to falsely accuse, and attempt to go down your continual rabbit trails. It is irrelevant what my past relationships looked like, it isn't me who is in the bondage of homosexuality anymore, however, you are. The Bible describes what your sin is based on - lust. You reject that because you love your lust - been there, done that! You will continue to reject unless God shows you mercy.
Here's the bottom line for you James...you are sinning against God. His word specifically says so. You can go on and on about irrelevant issues that do not pertain to your sin, but in the end, you will stand in front of God and He will judge you according to your sins.

You aren't willing to face your own sins, so you keep re-directing the topic to anything but your own vile wickedness. It isn't going to work James, you are simply without excuse. Romans 1 clearly teaches this, you know the truth, but you suppress that truth by your unrighteous living. You will be accountable for your sins James. Your greatest need is God's mercy. If truth doesn't drive you to your knees, it will be a witness against you on that final day.

The position, as I see it, is that everyone has the rights to say whatever they wish but must be prepared for the consequences of their speech.

Unless you are on the left, in which case any consequences are hate speech and needs to be punished.

Lyn, where do you see hatred coming from me? You're the one hurling insults and threats to have me thrown into an oven the size of Texas, aren't you?

But okay ... you got me. Maybe I should marry a girl.

Here's the thing: I'm 28. Is it a sin against God for someone my age to marry a 12-year-old female? [Note: I have no interest in doing so.] Yeah .. it's illegal and we are to obey the laws of our land, but there countries where it isn't. The Old Covenant had over 600-some laws that regulated everything from the type of clothing you wore to the type of incense you burned and the animals whose bellies you were to split open on the altar for God.

Moses had a man stoned to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath. Surely, there must be at least a few passages suggesting that adult men should not marry minors, don't you think? I'm sure there must be. Why don't you find it and let us know ...

In case you're missing my point (because you've side-stepped it thus far): a book that can tell us that picking up sticks on the Sabbath is "worthy of death" but is silent on whether an adult male marrying a young girl is immoral is not a coherent moral guide.

James, Where did I state you reveal any hate? Where did I hurl insults and threats? Read my comments again..carefully. They are not my words James, it is the word of the Lord. It isn't a 'threat' to tell a sinner what God's word states, if you cling to your sins, you will perish. Luke at the very words of Christ in Luke 13:3b, "except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish." Now read Revelation 21:8, " But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." This isn't a threat James, this is the word of the Lord, it is truth. This is the fate of every unrepentant sinner.

The Old Testament laws that were in place concerning the Sabbath, civil, ceremonial and moral laws are better explained at http://headhearthand.org/blog/2012/06/19/homosexuality-polyester-and-shellfish/.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body." 1 Corinthians 6:18

"Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge." Hebrews 13:4

" just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7

Now for the good news...

"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." Romans 5:6
" Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent" Acts 17:30
"Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20
""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
" "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36
" for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13
What does living according to the flesh look like?
"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21

Lyn, I'm quite familiar with the warnings of Scripture. We are supposed to not only believe certain things, we must live a certain way.

What is that way? I'm telling you: that "way" is not expressed within Scripture in a manner that is coherent.

We are supposed to love our families, yet Christ said that leaving one's family for Him is laudable. Yes ... let them fend for themselves so you can go be a street preacher in India or something. Why don't more Christians do this, then?

Scripture is filled with instances where God's "chosen" are told to target children civilians for death by the sword. What can a toddler do that will warrant their murderous death?

Were an army to behave as God's armies did in the Old Testament, they'd be dragged in front of the Hague for war crimes.

Scripture insists that women marry the men who raped them. It doesn't permit women to leave abusive spouses. It tells of prophets who have children torn apart by bears for merely teasing them about their receding hairline. It states that women are of less monetary value than men and says that they should have no authority over men, no matter how intelligent or gifted they are, simply because of their gender. It requires that people be buried in sand and have stones thrown at their heads until they die simply for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week. It requires that innocent animals have their necks broken and stomachs slit open to appease a blood-thirsty god. It says that Abraham was a good man because he was willing to kill his first born son for God. Lot was a "righteous" man ... never mind the fact that he was willing to offer up his virgin daughters to a mob (before he got drunk and got them pregnant).

Your Bible is not a moral book. It's a nightmare created by superstitious and cowardly men.

Grow up and open your eyes.

James, you insist '. We are supposed to not only believe certain things, we must live a certain way.' which is a 'works righteousness' mentality. You cannot and will not desire to live a holy life apart from God first regenerating you, that's why the word irritates you so bad. You see it as 'law,law,law'; a list of do's and don'ts. The heart God changes will indeed gladly and joyfully live the rest of our days here walking in obedience to our Lord and Savior.

Now you falsely accuse, "let them fend for themselves so you can go be a street preacher in India or something. Why don't more Christians do this" Where did Jesus say you must let your family fend for themselves? Here's a verse for you, 'But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.'1 Timothy 5:8 'but if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God.' 1 Timothy 5:4
Your view is wrong, but that's what happens when you pull verses out of context and attempt to discredit and blame God.

You also make this claim, 'Scripture insists that women marry the men who raped them' Can you provide chapter and verse please?

As for God giving the nation Israel victory in their battles over the wicked, how is it unfair for God to slaughter sinners who hate Him? God has created all, He has a right to do as He pleases, He needn't answer to anyone. All of mankind truly deserve wrath, for all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. The reason you do not comprehend this is because you know nothing of the God of the Bible. You only seek to make Him out to be unfair, unjust.

So you are okay with Hitler slaughtering six million Jews? And America and the surrounding nations allowing it to happen? You are okay with America allowing four thousand murders a day at abortion clinics across this land?

The young men who taunted the prophet were NOT children, Bible scholars claim these were teenagers. How about teenagers today who slaughter their own parents? Are you okay with that? The point is this, we are born sinners, wicked, vile sinners.
As for women having no authority over men, that has nothing to do with their gender; it has everything to do with God's created order - hint - Adam first, Eve was created after. God is a God of order, not disorder. I see you didn't bother to read about the civil, ceremonial, and moral laws in the link I gave you. Instead, you twist God's word, you do not even understand or know the context of what you state, your argument is baseless.
As for Lot, can you show us where the Bible says it was okay for Lot and his daughters to act out their sin? Just because you read something like that in the Bible does NOT mean God puts His 'stamp of approval' on it.

If my bible is not a moral book, why do you continue to return here and argue? What is the purpose of you fighting against a book you say is not moral, created by superstitious men?
Here are a couple of verses that prove you wrong, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20-21

The truth is, you cannot believe in God unless He chooses to reveal Himself to you. The more you mock Him, misinterpret His word, and blaspheme, the more wrath you store up for yourself. Perhaps an atheist forum is more suited for you.

"Your Bible is not a moral book. It's a nightmare created by superstitious and cowardly men.

Grow up and open your eyes."

James, I think we come to crux of the issue here. Here you are, having these discussions about the Bible, and look at your initial statement: "Folks: gay men and women are not motivated out of hatred of God." Is not a rejection of His Word showing contempt for God?

Just as the passage in Romans suggests, this seems to be really the root issue here: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth." Forget homosexuality and whether it is or is not a sin - this is the real issue: unbelief, and the rejection of God and his Word.

As Lyn said, "The truth is, you cannot believe in God unless He chooses to reveal Himself to you." Pray that He will open your eyes so you can see that the Lord is good, and that you can trust Him and His Word completely.

The key difference between the man who embraces his homosexuality, and the adulterers etc. in your examples above is repentance (assuming the adulterers etc. repent, of course - the point is persistence in sin versus repentance). Are you willing to repent for the sake of Christ? Are you willing to lose your very life, for the sake of gaining it? That is the question. I dare you to take that step, and to taste and see that the Lord is good!


Is not a rejection of His Word showing contempt for God?

Prove that the Bible is God's word. Heck prove God. Once you've demonstrated both of these assertions are true then we can move on to what God's word actually means.

BTW, stop capitalizing word when referring to the Bible. The Word means Jesus in orthodox Christianity.

James, I sympathize with you but you're spinning your wheels here. People like lyn will never accept you for the person you are or the loving, committed relationship you have with your partner. Sure, they'll cling to every passage in the Bible condemning homosexuality, but they'll brush aside every passage condoning slavery, rape, misogyny or genocide. The number of inconsistencies that one must live with to be a modern-day fundamentalist Christian is large.


It isn't about if I accept anyone, I am no man's judge. Nor am I a 'fundy', what I am is a sinner saved by God's amazing grace, set free by Christ from the bondage of sin, including the sin of lesbianism. 'The wages of sin is death', however, Christ bore ALL my sins on the cross and made atonement for them. I have eternal life, there is no wrath for those who are in Christ.
Yes, I cling to every word of God, it is my lifeline! It is His word that renews me, shows me the way, and empowers me to walk in it. I certainly do not condemn anyone in the bondage of homosexuality, however, God will. Unless you repent, you will perish - the Bible gives warnings to sinners, so all are without excuse. There is hope for sinners beyond the grave, Christ is this world's only hope.
It is my desire to present biblical truth to other sinners in hopes that God will save them. God has spoken, in His word, against sexual immorality. Any sex outside the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman - see Genesis 2:24, God forbids - see Hebrews 13:4. Is this what Lyn says? Not hardly, it is the eternal word of God that pricks the consciences of men and causes them to either fall on their faces and ask for mercy, or gnash their teeth and attack God's servants. I sincerely pray for the former for you AJG, and for James. As the Bible clearly warns, 'it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God' Hebrews 10:31
"The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God" Psalm 14:1

Let me add this, it doesn't matter whether you think homosexual relationships are based on love and are okay- God has already said He will judge the immoral person. To continue willfully sinning against God is to stir up His wrath.

For those who condone sin, God hasn't overlooked you, ' and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them....But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God." Romans 1:32; 2:5

God is a God of mercy, He will save those who cry out for mercy, who confess their sins and forsake them. Those who mock will face His judgment. God will NOT stop you from continuing in your sins, part of His judgment against those who do not believe is to turn them over to what they love - -sin.

AJG, a rejection of God's Word is a rejection of Jesus (the true Jesus, anyway).

I don't brush aside any passage of scripture. There is no passage that condones genocide, or slavery, etc (at lest not in the way you are suggesting). These have been treated extensively on this website, so I won't go into them here, but I think it's important to go through (more on that later).

Also, homosexual practice is not being singled out as somehow worse than other sins. Believe me, I have my own sins, and they are real, and I am in desparate need of God's grace. I am in no place to go around with a "holier than thou" attitude, and instead "I desparately need Jesus, and you do too."

The primary difference between homosexual practice and, say, adultery, is this: you don't see a massive push for Christians to declare adultery acceptable and okay, against scriptural authority. No one is saying they are an adulterer, and there is nothing wrong with that, and why won't Christians just accept their adultery? Didn't Jesus say "Judge not, lest ye be judged?" Why do Christians keep unlovingly pointing out that adultery is a sin in the Bible? If there was such a push, you would see Christians pushing back with the same veracity you see today with things like same-sex marriage.

You and James do not accept scriptural authority, so I agree with you wholeheartedly - Let's get away from homosexuality and talk about God's Word, and is it trustworthy? Because if you are not accepting the Jesus of the Bible, you are not accepting Jesus, and that is far more important than any discussion about specific sins.

If the slaughter of the Canaanites is in the way of you accepting the Bible, let's talk about it, because there is a very good answer of how God could initiate such a thing and still be a good God. If the treatment of women is in the way, we can talk about how Christianity actually has tended toward BETTER conditions for women than others. Just look at the study by Robert Woodberry that shows the existence of protestant missionaries in the past has tended toward higher education levels, especially for women, as just one example. Whatever it is, let's talk about that first, and then we can move toward discussions about specific sins.


VA Steve: I'm not denying that Christianity has made contributions to the world. The reason this has even been possible is through appealing to the "deeper values" and spirit of the law (justice, mercy, etc) rather than the letter of the law.

It was these values that the abolitionists appealed to. Were they to take the Bible at face value (as folks like Lyn seem prone to do), they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.


Here's Richard Furman of the Southern Baptists on the institution of slavery:

"Had the holding of slaves been a moral evil, it cannot be supposed, that the inspired Apostles, who feared not the faces of men, and were ready to lay down their lives in the cause of their God, would have tolerated it, for a moment, in the Christian Church."

Yet, how can you "love your neighbor as yourself" when you're holding them against their will and giving them none of the opportunities in life that you take for granted? What thinking person can justify it?

What about divorce? The letter of law says you can divorce your spouse under one condition: infidelity (or if they are an unbeliever and they abandon you). Do you see any permission given to women to leave men who are beating them and/or their children? I don't. Do you honestly believe that women who flee these men to protect themselves or their children are sinning against God? If you heed the letter of the law, I guess so. To me, the obligation to protect one's life and the safety and well-being of one's children trumps the marital vow (which is, again, an appeal to the notions of justice and mercy: it is an affront to these values to force a woman to remain with an abuser).

So, Lyn (and others): if you're going to hold to the letter of the law in regards to homosexuality, is it too much to ask to do so in other facets of Scripture, even if you find them inconvenient or difficult? I'm asking for consistency here.


Nowhere does God's word state you must stay in an abusive marriage. Nowhere does God's word condone slavery either. This might be of some help to you - http://www.biblepages.net/io16.htm

The bible is crystal clear on sexual sin, including the sin of homosexuality. It's not what I hold to James, it's what God has commanded and what He will judge by. He has said you should not lie with a man as with a woman. Christ Himself said homosexuality defiles a person, from Matthew 15:19-20, 'For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:these are the things which defile the man.'
Fornication is defined by Thayer's Greek Definitions as 'adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.' That covers all the sexually immoral bases.
No one is being inconsistent here, there is nothing in the Bible where God says it's okay to beat your wife, nor does God say it's okay to hold another human as a slave. These are results of mans' own wicked and depraved nature. Again, not everything you read in the Bible means God condones that particular thing.

On whether or not God condoned slavery in the Bible, see here.

"Nowhere does God's word state you must stay in an abusive marriage."

Luke 16:18, Matthew 5:32, Matthew 19:9

"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Three passages. Not one allowance for divorce for abuse if you read it honestly.

"Nowhere does God's word condone slavery either."

Exodus 21:7
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do."

Leviticus 25:44-46
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever."

Exodus 21:20-21
"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

To paraphrase: there is no penalty for beating your slaves if they don't actually die.


It's a bit surprising that I have to inform Christians of what the Bible actually says.

Luke 16:18, Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 do NOT even mention abuse at all! The Bible does NOT say you have to stay in a marriage where you are abused.

"Does the Bible condone slavery?"

Answer: There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 27 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html#ixzz2ySAhDfN4

Question: "What are biblical grounds for divorce?"

Answer: When discussing what the Bible says about divorce, it is important to keep in mind the words of Malachi 2:16, “I hate divorce, says the Lord God.” Whatever grounds the Bible possibly gives for divorce, that does not mean God desires a divorce to occur in those instances. Rather than asking “is ______ a grounds for divorce,” often the question should be “is _______ grounds for forgiveness, restoration, and/or counseling?”

The Bible gives two clear grounds for divorce: (1) sexual immorality (Matthew 5:32; 19:9) and (2) abandonment by an unbeliever (1 Corinthians 7:15). Even in these two instances, though, divorce is not required or even encouraged. The most that can be said is that sexual immorality and abandonment are grounds (an allowance) for divorce. Confession, forgiveness, reconciliation, and restoration are always the first steps. Divorce should only be viewed as a last resort.

Are there any grounds for divorce beyond what the Bible explicitly says? Perhaps, but we do not presume upon the Word of God. It is very dangerous to go beyond what the Bible says (1 Corinthians 4:6). The most frequent additional grounds for divorce that people inquire about are spousal abuse (emotional or physical), child abuse (emotional, physical, or sexual), addiction to pornography, drug / alcohol use, crime / imprisonment, and mismanagement of finances (such as through a gambling addiction). None of these can be claimed to be explicit biblical grounds for a divorce.

That does not necessarily mean, though, that none of them are grounds for divorce which God would approve of. For example, we cannot imagine that it would be God’s desire for a wife to remain with a husband who physically abuses her and/or their children. In such an instance, the wife should definitely separate herself and the children from the abusive husband. However, even in such a situation, a time of separation with the goal of repentance and restoration should be the ideal, not necessarily immediately beginning divorce proceedings. Please understand, by saying that the above are not biblical grounds for divorce, we are definitely not saying that a man/woman whose spouse is engaging in such activities should remain in the situation. If there is any risk to self or children, separation is a good and appropriate step.

Another way to look at this issue is to differentiate between biblical grounds for divorce and biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage. Some interpret the two biblical grounds for divorce mentioned above as the only grounds for remarriage after a divorce, but allow for divorce with no remarriage in other instances. While this is a plausible interpretation, it seems to come too close to presuming upon the Word of God. For more information, please read the following two articles:

In summary, what are the biblical grounds for divorce? The answer is sexual immorality and abandonment. Are there additional grounds for divorce beyond these two? Possibly. Is divorce ever to be treated lightly or employed as the first recourse? Absolutely not. God is capable of changing and reforming any person. God is capable of healing and renewing any marriage. Divorce should only occur in instances of repeated and unrepentant heinous sin.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/grounds-for-divorce.html#ixzz2ySCcqaxu

If a husband and wife are both in Christ, abuse will NOT be an issue, for the husband will love his wife as Christ loves the church, and the wife will submit to her husband.

The comments to this entry are closed.