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June 13, 2016

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I am drawn to something Martin Luther said and wonder if we aren't experiencing it as others in times past have.

“God’s wrath is greatest when He removes His Word or permits people to despise it. When the Greeks despised His Word, He took it away and gave them the Turk and Mohammed.

Dr. Francis Nigel Lee. (n.d.). LUTHER ON ISLAM.

Well written Amy. Refreshing.

Such evil is in the world, as we saw from Florida.

We didn't see God in any of it.

Not Scripture's God at least.

Perhaps some other god.

Or the will to power.

Christ really does reveal the living God.

"Vulgar words or jokes about homosexuals should never pass the lips of a Christian. If you find yourself feeling glad when some affliction befalls a homosexual person or you find feelings of hatred welling up in your heart toward homosexual people, then you need to reflect long and hard on the words of Jesus recorded in Matthew: “it will be more tolerable on the Day of Judgement for Sodom and Gomorrah than for you” (Mt. 10.15; 11.24)." (William Lane Craig)

Melinda,

That would be you ;-)

“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” (Matthew 10:14–15)

“And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.” (Matthew 11:23–24)

Dave,

Yes, you already said God is the one killing them.

Problem is, no one believes you.

For our homosexual searchers,

God wasn't the One getting what He wants in that bar killing the very people He has reconciled through Christ, gay, straight, and otherwise now dead. Pay Dave no mind please.

I suggest: this is a good time for y'all to stop and think whether/how your activities with respect to the LGBT communities and the way you talk them contribute to the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere where crimes like this get dreamed up and committed.

RonH,

I couldn't agree more. It's a human issue from which no one is immune. Pastor Martin Luther King Jr. and Christianity going about condemning the dreaming up of and the committing of crimes like this, and backing it up with a "why" that need not equivocate in its ontology of love's timeless self-giving is common place. Which is why the time is taken to make such points. Your own preferred atheist crowd has its own fringe elements vocally supporting the atmospheres you speak of, which is echoed by fringe elements in other mindsets. It's up to each to explain their on ontology (in the Christian's case) or perhaps their own Noble Lie (in your crowd's case). Either way, at the end of the day, it's a work in need of doing by everyone.

Melinda’s reminder is timely as she references those inescapable strata of love’s egalitarian bedrock laced through and through the Christian’s metanarrative in which, to quote a few lines, “…every single person is a valuable human being born with God’s image, and that we have an obligation to respect that. Every one of us…..we are valuable human beings who still retain the image of God and deserve respect…. We’re all the same – a valuable human being.”

It’s unclear where the intellectual rigor defending either Pantheism or Atheism, or Islam, lands here as in Pantheism it’s all good, it’s all God, including Orlando, and Islam will have to be left to speak for itself. As for Christianity and Atheism, well, that’s a fairly straightforward and radical divergence:

Against equality

What Nietzsche most hated, and the demise of which he most looked forward to, was the egalitarianism that Christianity had introduced into Western civilization. As he writes in The Will to Power:

The “Christian ideal”: … attempt to make the virtues through which happiness is possible for the lowliest into the standard ideal of all values…(185)

“Through Christianity, the individual was made so important, so absolute, that he could no longer be sacrificed: but the species endures only through human sacrifice – All souls become “equal” before God: but this is precisely the most dangerous of all possible evaluations! If one regards individuals as equal, one calls the species into question, one encourages a way of life that leads to the ruin of the species: Christianity is the counter-principle to the principle of selection….”

This universal love of men is in practice the preferencefor the suffering, underprivileged, degenerate: it has in fact lowered and weakened the strength, the responsibility, the lofty duty to sacrifice men. (246)

What is it we combat in Christianity? That it wants to break the strong… (252) (from http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/06/adventures-in-old-atheism-part-i.html )

That the value and equality of worth which saturates every person lands in the lap of the immutable love of the Necessary Being – the triune God – in Whom we find Trinity’s unending processions vis-à-vis love’s timeless self-giving is in fact the very wellspring not only of love’s ontology but also of our own immutable value. As a Christian it makes no sense given my pathological regress to a need to earn that certain something, a need to prove, if even only to myself, that I matter, for, as if to laugh at me, Scripture’s metaphysical landscape informs me that though I sin daily – and I do – yet still I am found in Christ, inside of an immutable focus of welcome. That spits in the face of all other declarations about the fundamental nature of Man, Man’s Reality, and Ultimate Reality (God).

“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6)

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

“Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lamentations 3:38)

“For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: But evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.” (Micah 1:12)

“For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?” (Ezekiel 14:21)

“There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1–5)


THE CHRISTIAN GOD KILLED ALL THE GAYS IN ORLANDO, AND LIKED IT!


To our Homosexual searchers,

That's false, as per the comments in this thread so far. I reference there in that bolded nonsense Dave's unfortunate stream of thought from other threads and here and do so merely to point your eyes away from his misguided conclusion about the nature of things and over instead to the truth of the matter, which is in Christ.

While Dave leaves Christ and scripture's actual metanarrative out of all his thinking, and while he told us elsewhere that it is in fact the Christian God (and perhaps Allah?) that we are watching in these mass shootings, that the Christian God (and perhaps Allah?) actually wants it, even likes it, recall I had asked you earlier to please pay him no mind, and with good reason. I refer you instead to RonH's and Melinda's comments and mine, if nothing else.


“For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.” (Ezekiel 18:32)

“Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 33:11)

This is a good example of how refusing to embrace the entirety of Scripture's metanarrative conjured up dreams and acts of both having slaves and killing slaves, how falsehoods conjure up the mindsets behind these mass shootings.

Dave tells us that Man cannot choose to do otherwise.

Man cannot repent unless God compels him to repent.

But God does not do that, and then God kills folks in mass shootings for not repenting, and then God tells us He really didn't WANT to do it.

But He HAD to do it because Man did not repent.

But Man cannot repent, unless God compel him to repent. Which God does not do so that God can carry out His Will, and then demonstrate His Wrath.

In fact, Dave will tell us, has told us, it IS the Christian God Himself (and perhaps Allah?) Who we are watching on the News, there in that gay bar, in our nation's largest mass shooting, getting what God wants.

Really Dave?

You think Ezekiel can save your misguided theology?

I just can't respect someone who is afraid to own his own (misguided) nonsense. Try giving us the whole thing for once. All of it. All the self-negating parts.

Fueling insanity:

A handful of verses. Minus context. Minus Christ. Minus the other 2/3 of Scripture. Minus thinking things through. In short, minus the Christian metanarrative. Hence the word "everybody" is included in my reply to RonH, as fringe elements of Christians, still today, have a voice, as we see here and in other threads here, still asserting that God is the One doing these mass shootings, wanting these mass shootings, ordaining these mass shootings, that Man is not free to do otherwise, for God does not allow Man the wherewithal to do otherwise, for that would allow man the wherewithal to repent, to thwart God's will, for God in fact in these mass shootings is demonstrating His Will atop the World Stage. Dave leaves out far too much of his misguided, self-contradicting, fringe, nonsense.

Fortunately, there is this to silence counter such fringe elements: Scripture's metanarrative.

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Timothy 2:25–26)

Dave,

So every human being is free to repent? Empowered by God to so?

Everywhere, all the time?

Why change your story now?


Fringe elements don't discuss.

No "Yes/No" will come from Dave on that last question.

It's easy to spot that patterns which RonH mentioned: Head down. Quoting holy text. No real interfacing with others.

Dave,

People are killing people.

So unless you're willing to demonstrate consistency in your definitions, it's important to point out any hedges, in order to distance [A] what you really think went on in that bar from [B] Christianity's actual, real narrative.

Ron,

The attitudes and language of internet atheists is far more toxic than anything Christians here say about gay or transgender people. Have you stopped and thought about whether and how your activities have contributed to Christians who have been bullied and murdered recently?

MFGA,

Interesting.... Some New Atheists of late ENCOURAGE open ridicule of Christians.

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30–31)

Dave,

No "Yes" to confirm that you are (radically) changing your definitions?

So every human being is free to repent? Empowered by God to so?

Everywhere, all the time?

Why change your (radical) story now?

Head down.... Quoting holy text....

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (John 6:65–66)

To Homosexual readers,

As we see, fringe elements evade... Head down.... Quoting holy text...

We see it in some of Islam as well, hence the insanity, the fuel.

For the reasons mentioned earlier, please disregard Dave's unfortunate and unscriptural conclusions.


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:15–16)

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

The focus is on Luther thinking Islam is a scourge God sends on wicked people. No mention of any particular group.

"I am drawn to something Martin Luther said and wonder if we aren't experiencing it as others in times past have.

“God’s wrath is greatest when He removes His Word or permits people to despise it. When the Greeks despised His Word, He took it away and gave them the Turk and Mohammed."

Dr. Francis Nigel Lee. (n.d.). LUTHER ON ISLAM.

Homosexual friends,

What Dave and other fringe elements in Christianity (inexplicably) believe about Orlando, and Gays, and God, and mass executions of Gays, was summarized in this thread's comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM".

Dave has not distanced himself from his own assertions so far.

Which is why it is important that we are making the effort here to go on distancing ourselves from him and that fringe element.

We ask that you take that effort for what it is: genuine and informed.

@SCB: Please copy and paste any reference I made to Gays or others. I simply agree with Luther that the same way the Greeks suffered under Islam, so is America. If anything I draw no distinction between any of the American peoples.

Dave,

You mean your beliefs in the time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM" reference only apply to non-gays?

Seriously?

Don't back away from your assertions now.

@ SCB: Please copy and paste any reference I made to Gays or others.

If anything, you are singling out gays and focusing my scripture references against them. All I'm saying is that God judges wicked nations including all classes of sins.

:)

Dave,

See the time stamped item "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM".

That is your belief about this mass execution.


@ SCB: If I said it, copy and paste it verbatim and I will address it.

Notice, Israel did not have a Gay population, so this judgement was for rejecting God. None of what I posted has anything to do with any segment of American society. Just sin and rebellion in general.

49 “The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like a vulture. It is a nation whose language you do not understand,

50 a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young.

51 Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will be destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, and you will starve to death.

52 They will attack your cities until all the fortified walls in your land—the walls you trusted to protect you—are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you.

53 “The siege and terrible distress of the enemy’s attack will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you.

54 The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children.

55 He will refuse to share with them the flesh he is devouring—the flesh of one of his own children—because he has nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.

56 The most tender and delicate woman among you—so delicate she would not so much as touch the ground with her foot—will be selfish toward the husband she loves and toward her own son or daughter.

57 She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.

58 “If you refuse to obey all the words of instruction that are written in this book, and if you do not fear the glorious and awesome name of the LORD your God,

59 then the LORD will overwhelm you and your children with indescribable plagues. These plagues will be intense and without relief, making you miserable and unbearably sick.

60 He will afflict you with all the diseases of Egypt that you feared so much, and you will have no relief. 61 The LORD will afflict you with every sickness and plague there is, even those not mentioned in this Book of Instruction, until you are destroyed.

Dave,

Seriously?

On the mass murder of homosexuals in Orlando:

Which nuances, specifically, in the comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM" do you reject?

@ SCB: I considered the victims as Americans under God's judgement just as others killed by Islam. I never mentioned anything about their "drinking beer", or "sexual preferences" or "night clubbing" or any other thing. Just that they as Americans are under God's wrath if what Luther says is true.

I then provided Scripture to support Luther's claims.

You did a "Rorschach Test" interpretation on everything I said and totally missed the point.

Dave,

God was on the News. Getting what He wants. In the Gay bar. In every mass shooting. Even those inside of Churches full of African Americans. Even those.... Even those....

Do you deny this?

And He insured it would happen by taking volition out of the mix.

Re-read the following: comment here time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM".

@SCB: If you want to know what God is doing today, switch on the News or pick up the paper.

You made it a gay thing, not me. If you could search STR archives you might find other posts where I affirm God controls all things, and that if even one atom escapes his control, he is no longer God.

I've posted similar to other forums.

“When people live so that they please the LORD, even their enemies will make peace with them.” (Proverbs 16:7)

Dave,

As per the comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM".

@SCG: "As per the comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM"."

Copy and paste it so there aren't any mix ups.

Dave,

I invited you earlier to explain which nuances in that comment, specifically, you reject.

@SCB: I do not know which comment you are talking about. Please copy and paste it so I can examine it.

Dave,

Also, earlier, I asked for clarification here:

So every human being is free to repent? Empowered by God to so?

Everywhere, all the time?

Why change your story now?

@SCB "every human being is free to repent? Empowered by God to so?"

“correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:25–26)

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)

“If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.” (John 15:22)

Dave,

Perhaps grant, perhaps not.

We already described that.

As per the comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM".

Dave,

That's the problem with staying on the fringes. One isn't aware of what one isn't aware of.

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Timothy 2:25–26)

“Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.” (Deuteronomy 29:4)

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” (Matthew 11:27)

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” (Romans 9:18)

Dave,

Yes, we already know your uninformed fringe view: the Christian God was in the Orlando Florida (Gay) bar on June 12th, 2016, causing, getting, what He wants.

As per the comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM".

Since you've nothing else to add.....

@SCB; That is your claim and your time stamp. Produce something I said with a time stamp and we'll take it from there....

Dave,

Seriously? Do you disagree with those claims made about your fringe view? I don't think you do.

Dave,

Also, earlier, three times now, I've invited you:

Which nuances, specifically, in the comment time stamped "Posted by: scbrownlhrm | June 14, 2016 at 04:26 AM" do you reject?

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