« Links Mentioned on the 6/15/16 Show | Main | Challenge Response: The Collection of Books in the Bible Changed Until the Printing Press »

June 15, 2016

Comments

Well said.

Amen.

I agree.

I believe God is no different today than in the Old Testament. Only now we are under the New Testament. He still sends judgement on wicked nations but no longer at the hands of his people.

We are to follow the New Covenant teaching of the Sermon on the Mount which includes loving enemies and practicing non-violence. God calls us to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to those under his wrath along with repentance.

In the Orlando situation, Homosexuality is no worse than adultery and the churches are full of it through Divorce and Remarriage. How are violent "Christians" any different from violent Muslim's when neither follow Christ?

We Should Respond as Jesus Taught Us To

Then maybe Greg will stop referring to transgendered people as 'confused'?

Maybe Greg will any longer say (speaking with regard to trans people and bathrooms) things like "I keep thinking: IT CAN'T GET SILLIER".

(Maybe he will no longer say things like that.)

And maybe he will no longer say things like "Gay marriage is beyond silly."

I said almost the exact same thing on facebook yesterday. The love of Christ compells us to care. He died for ALL...yes, for the Muslims as well. It is His desire for ALL to know Him. Jesus lived a great part of His life eating with sinners and Publicans...That isnt Republicans. Believe it or not Pat, some of them are sinners too. And shocki gly some will accept Jesus. Your wisdom has not increased with age. I used to be a supporter of your ministry. My husband and I even moved there for him to go to law school. Grow up in your faith!!

Maybe he will stop saying things like 'Same sex marriage is an oxymoron and more moronic than most other notions."

>> Then maybe Greg will stop referring to transgendered people as 'confused'?

>> And maybe he will no longer say things like "Gay marriage is beyond silly."

>> Maybe he will stop saying things like 'Same sex marriage is an oxymoron and more moronic than most other notions."

RonH,

What if there were a ring of truth to each of these?

Now, the third entry may enter into the realm of the sarcastic, but when was the last time you used your clever wit and whimsy to deride the faith?

There is such a thing as speaking the truth in love. It is a difficult art to master, simply because there is the factor of the message being unappealing, unpopular, or passed off as "hate speech." Yet, to be open and caring, such things need to be heard, and not graded on some "zapometer" scale of tactlessness. We try to be tactful, but sometimes we fail at this.

Jesus did speak to this issue:

1 Now there were some present at the same time who told him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way. 4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” (Lk. 13: 1-4)

And yes, there was that moment when Jesus gave full vent to His displeasure. Consider Mt. 23. "Woe ... hypocrites!" seven times to those whose opinions of their lifestyles recognized no sin. Both barrels!

With the tragedy in Orlando, we must show the fullest measure of sympathy. Compassion, people, in this year of short tempers and incredible levels of hubris and insensitivity. How much this is needed!

Sympathy in its purest form, but beware when sympathy blinds us to what is true.

When was the last time I derided the faith?

More the point, is that a frequent activity for me?

Is it a pattern?

I ask because I took all those (near) quotations, from one (April 27) commentary.

I won't spend the time, but if you listen to the show you know I didn't need any luck finding such stuff.

>> When was the last time I derided the faith?

Brings in the dough.


Posted by: RonH | June 14, 2016 at 03:18 PM

>> More the point, is that a frequent activity for me?

RonH,

What you have stated in STR has been always a competently expressed concept which deserved grudged respect from all who read you and tend to disagree with you. We need your insights, since (in this case) it addresses an important crisis in modern American society.

Once in a while you do get out one of those "zingers".

They are well received and often deserve the introspection.

Dave,

I'll make this as extreme, yet precise, as possible ;-)

It seems that you feel God wants, or causes, or both, Christians to sin given that Christians sin.

But is that what the New Testament states about our (Christian's) relationship with God?

The Holy Spirit (God) inside of the Christian is leading the Christian into truth and righteousness BUT the Father (God) up above is leading (irresistibly?) the Christian into deception and unrighteousness? Because God wants. So God then causes. So that God gets. God does not give away Himself, does not Self-Sacrifice. God therefore is in fact conflicted when it comes to His relationship with His Children? The Holy Spirit and the Father are "working" or "verb-ing" against each other in some very real way. The Holy Spirt will lead you into truth. The Father God up above, well, we can't really put our trust in Him.

How much twisting of New Testament theology is needed to arrive at that conclusion......

Are Christians actually volitional, able to choose to chase God?

Are Christians guilty in Christ?

Is there condemnation in Christ?

I'm curious because I want to see if you believe the same about the Christians in the 1st century Roman coliseums as you do about the non-Christian wrt volition and God "wanting and so causing people to do X so that Z things can then happen".

It seems Robertson and yourself count the slaughter of Christians in 1st Century Roman coliseums year after year ..... after.... year as God's wrath against Christians rather than persecution of Christians.

Basically:

The Roman Coliseum wasn't evil. It was good. Because it was God. There may be some effervescing layer of evil in the men who did it, but at bottom God withholds from the Christians the capacity to repent, to chase God, "so that" He causes what He wants, which is for Christians to sin, "so that" He can then directly cause the mass slaughter Christians, "so that" God gets what He wants. Because God is all about getting what He wants. Self-Sacrifice is foreign to His Nature (whatever "nature" means wrt God).

There is no *real* giving away by God towards Man.

Ever.

It's about "I Want!" on God's end.

Full stop.

And such still is "at bottom" the case today when there are mass shootings of Christians.

The Holy Spirit (God) inside of the Christian is leading the Christian into truth and righteousness BUT the Father (God) up above is leading (irresistibly?) the Christian into deception and unrighteousness? Because God wants. So God then causes. So that God gets. God does not give away Himself, does not Self-Sacrifice. It's all about what God wants. Not about Self-Sacrifice. God therefore is in fact conflicted when it comes to His relationship with His Children?

Is that about right?

Can you please clarify, specifically, where it isn't accurate?

________________

BTW, I think we are already granted the lack and want and loss which sin yields. In Christ there is our safety that we are assured that we are not condemned, not judged guilty, but counted, even made, righteous in and by Christ. Yet still, though, our sin/sins continue to produce their (natural) fruit, and so yes, we suffer from the consequences of our sin/sins on some level, and will also lose out on some sort of something in the next life as well (whatever that means etc.), but such suffering is the natural (eventual) outworking of our own (factually) volitional choices, not something sent by God via Him irresistibly causing X to slaughter me and my family and three hundred other Christians.

Judgment and Righteousness are still fully present, but in a very different way than what is (I think) your groundwork structure of the nature of things.


Dave,

Another way to see it is that Christians always come up short, which is true. But it's not evident that the Roman Coliseums and the slaughter of Christians in them year after year was anything like that which was just described in the last comment..... It's not apparent that such a take on God and the facts really do pan out that way.

Dave,

I'll give you this though:

You're not focused on any single group, rather, your definitions are focused on "God/Mankind". There's no actual distinctions between group A vs. B vs. C vs.... and so on to Z. That does *not* seem to be the case with several, too many, current slices of Islam.

I don't think Christ's teaching rules out self defense or defense of one's loved ones or defense of one's home or defense of one's country.

Isn't violence used to defend folks against evil action a good thing?

@ GH5: >"I don't think Christ's teaching rules out self defense or defense of one's loved ones or defense of one's home or defense of one's country.

Isn't violence used to defend folks against evil action a good thing?"

Please provide New Testament Scripture showing where any of Christ's followers used "approved" violence, or killed anyone.

Pacifism may be the way to go.

Pacifism may not be the way to go.

But how to answer such a question about such an X?

The method of exegesis cannot say the following in order to make the decision about the truth or falseness of, say, the Trinity:

Please provide New Testament Scripture showing where any of Christ's followers used "Trinity" or "Triune" with anyone.
_______________

Again, pacifism may be the way to go. Or not. I have no comment on it.

[ Well, FWIW, perhaps this: we can say that, unlike Islam, Christianity does not assert that the kingdom comes through and by physical, material, weapons. Our weapons of warfare are not material as the much wider canopy of God's means of ushering in His Kingdom ultimately define those very terms.]

Rather, this comment is simply to remind us that *definitions* must come from scripture's entire, and singular, *meta-narrative".

Edit:

Which means words and concepts and nuances and *distinctions* which are *not* expressly delineated by words found in our Bible Concordance, such as "Triune", and so on, *can* and in fact *do* exist.

@ SCB: >"Please provide New Testament Scripture showing where any of Christ's followers used "Trinity" or "Triune" with anyone."

God manifested as Father, Word (Son), and Holy Spirit exists in the New Testament. "Christian Violence" is never found. All of the Apostles except John were killed, refusing to defend themselves. And Jesus forbids violence. Call it Pacifism if you like, or call God a trinity if you like, but the examples for both remain vividly illustrated in the NT.

Dave,

I don't know what Scripture says about police concepts and police nuances.

Nor the Trinity.

None of it is in my concordance. Your verses haven't proven Trinity.

Nor disproven police nuances.

Dave,

Can a Christian be a police officer, or is doing so a sin?

I don't know the answer myself as the word police isn't in my concordance.

But what is your answer?

Dave,

Isn't God the immediate and direct cause of all violence, Christian or otherwise? Isn't all of it orchestrated by God?

You said it was God there in the news, doing all of it.

Your definitions seem confused.

@SCB: “The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

Dave,

I'm confused.

Are you asserting the following:

The Holy Spirit, God, inside us, leads us into Goodness. Father above, God, leads us into violence (God wants and causes every act we do).

So it seems we CAN and DO satisfy God's desire in and through violence.

If it happens, it's God.

???

@SCB:>"(God wants and causes every act we do)."

God causes his people to do good things. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:” (Philippians 2:13–14)

He causes bad people to do wicked things. “He turned their heart to hate his people, To deal subtilly with his servants.” (Psalm 105:25)

Dave,

I know you believe that about the Christian's acts of violence. So much for "unapproved" killings of gays by Christians. It's happened.

The Holy Spirit, God within us, leads us..... causes us.....

Dave,

We disagree.

I'm distancing myself from your fringe view.

@ SCB: Please consider that Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit happens when people attribute the works of God to Satan.

How close do we come to committing this sin when we ascribe God's works to "free will"?

Dave,

Do definitions of God wanting and causing every act "change" when we speak of Christian's acts?

@ SCB: >"Do definitions of God wanting and causing every act "change" when we speak of Christian's acts?"

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

Apart from Christ, all are under God's wrath. They can do nothing but sin even in their most noble works.

Dave,

In the past, and today, and in the future, when real Christians have killed their slaves, or....gays (it has / will *happen/ed*) was that the Holy Spirit in them leading them into God's Desire?

@SCB: "real Christians"?

Would Jesus have slaves? Or kill them?

On the other hand, God kills everyone including Christians. Those outside of Christ die because of their sins in Adam and subsequent sins.

For those in Christ, God turns our suffering and death into everlasting life and happiness.

Think of Christian slaves who died refusing to defend themselves or lower themselves to violence. What a great challenge of their faith and what a great reward.

“Seeing his days are determined, The number of his months are with thee, Thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;” (Job 14:5)

Dave,

In the past, and today, and in the future, when real Christians have killed their slaves, or....gays (it has / will *happen/ed*) was that the Holy Spirit in them leading them into God's Desire?

@SCB; >"when real Christians have killed their slaves, or....gays (it has / will *happen/ed*)".....

If you can locate their actions in the New Testament, you can call them Christians.

You should not take their word at it since anyone that will kill might also lie.

Yet God uses the deceived for his own purposes in Judgement.

“And for this cause God shall send them (religious people, Islam, cults, etc.) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” (2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Dave,

Christians never sin?

But you said God is the One in the news, wanting and causing Christians to shoot the X, whatever X a Christian may shoot, including (but not exclusive to) gays.

Which is it?

Also:

The Orlando shooter posits it is the Holy God within him, above him, Who leads, wants, causes, him to thusly shoot.

The Holy Spirit, God, in all acts of Christians too, on the Christian's terms?

Or are there concrete distinctions to be made? Allah isn't under any law either, on mere definition.


Real Christians commit real sins. Therefore, God, the Holy Spirit, in us, wants those acts by those Christians, and causes, and gets. He leads us into all such acts. There are no acts otherwise.

Dave,

I agree that real Christians commit real sins, but I disagree with the rest of what I described in my last comment..... And that "the rest of" seems to be what some fringe elements are telling us.

@SCB: >"Real Christians commit real sins."

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” (1 John 3:9–11)

“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15)

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:4–5)

Dave,

Do you ever sin?

I do.

Dave,

As a Christian, do you ever have to confess your sins?

I do.

As Christians: When I confess my sins to God, or when we confess our sins to each other, it's not a confession that I did what God, the Holy Spirit in me, first wanted me to do and then caused/balanced things "just-so" so that I'd do and then irresistibly led me to do.

@SCB: >"As a Christian, do you ever have to confess your sins?"

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The way I understand this is Christians have a continual battle between the Flesh and the Holy Spirit.

We are sinful, but because we have the Holy Spirit we cannot live sinful lifestyles. Our conscience will not allow it. I have a hyperactive conscience and little sins really bother me. So We live in a constant state of repentance.

I continually ask for forgiveness for sinful thoughts even though I don't sin outwardly like I did before God saved me.

I ask God to forgive me for what I am, even though I don't allow myself to sin outwardly.

Dave,

Christians never sin *outwardly*, only *inwardly*

Seriously? Or is that just your unique case?

Didn't God want, cause, get, you to do those *inner* sins *too*?

Do you really think *doing* in our mind vs. with our hands makes a difference in this discussion? In what you're being asked?

So how do you address this:

When a Christian husband loses his temper and yells at his wife, we have the inner anger and the outer yelling, so..... did God first want him to do *it*, and then arrange / balance things "just-so" so that he actually would do *it* and then guarantee that he'd do *it*, and then, once he did *it* get what He (God) wanted?

You clearly believe that is the case for *all* *acts*, *thoughts*, *its*, of *mankind*, but now you seem to be all over the map using contradicting street signs.

???

Dave,

If a husband ever yells, it is sin, but is that "outward" *it* proof of his Non-Christian status?

What if he just "wants" to yell (inwardly) but bites his tongue? Did God want / cause / get "that"?

It's just the outward bodily acts that define things for you?

Isn't God God of *ALL* in/on these fringe definitions? Wanting, causing, getting for Himself, ALL of *it*?


Dave... wait a sec...

It occurred to me that you've never answered the question on whether or not God wanted, caused, and got His Want in the Christian's sins. Those *its* ARE real after all. Right there in the daily news, where we see God getting what God wants, right?

It's amazing how evasive fringe dances can be.

Since you won't answer that question, let's try this:

Per the fringe:

[Allah isn't under any law, *therefore* it's okay/coherent if Allah makes Muslims do real evil, and, on the Christian fringe's view, God isn't under any law *either*, and so *therefore* it's okay/coherent if God makes Christians do real evil too, even as God tells us He does not want Christians to do real evil. God seems to be confused, or He's lying.

*ALL* *its* are God getting what God wants.]

???

@SCB: I have an idea. Please list outward sins that you think Christians commit routinely. Or even the isolated once in a while sins. I will then see if I do any of these. Most of my battles are inward in the thought and motive realm. But I would like to see if I'm doing something according to what you think is sin that I'm unaware of.

TIA.

Dave,

See above. It only takes one.

Also,

According to your terms, God still wants and causes the inner sin too.

Dave,

Also, according to your terms, God still wants and causes the outer sin too.

Sin is sin Dave. Odd that Christ points to the inner man but you point to the outer.

Now you've got God forcing Christians to sin inside while He punishes them for it, as He did with His Wrath against 1st century Christians in the Roman coliseums.

According to the definitions you've offered.

According to you, if a Christian hates, say, gays or, say, X, then God wanted him to thusly hate inside. Because it's an *it*. And no *its* exist but those which God first wants, and then causes.

The comments to this entry are closed.