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« Ambassadors and Panhandlers | Main | "The Gates of Hell Will Not Prevail" »

January 06, 2006

Comments

That was a good (albeit short) article by Chuck Colson. Thanks for the link.

Pat Robertson is one of those people who makes the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment so incredibly hard. The man is a stench. It's really important not to follow his example in our behavior but rather to live a life of love and compassion. The contrast between him and men like, say, Colson is remarkable.

He was quoting from Joel 3:2. But I didn't notice anything there about God giving people strokes though.

He was quoting from Joel 3:2. But I didn't notice anything there about God giving people strokes though.

Warning: Political Reality below.

This concern comes a bit late. Note the item below from WorldNetDaily:

"WorldNetDaily, July 11th, 2002 ...

Rabbi Daniel Lapin, head of Toward Tradition, and Gary Bauer, former GOP presidential candidate, will co-chair the American Alliance of Jews and Christians, or AAJC. A statement released yesterday calls the effort "a unique synthesis of Jewish authenticity and Christian grass-roots muscle."

...The new cooperative, headquartered in Washington, D.C., will have an immediate constituency via Bauer's approximately 100,000-strong e-mail list. According to the statement, the advisory board of the organization will include Dr. James Dobson, Charles Colson, the Rev. Jerry Falwell, the Rev. Pat Robertson, Pastor Rick Scarborough, as well as Rabbi Barry Freundel, Rabbi David Novak, Rabbi Meir Soloveichik, Michael Medved, John Uhlmann and Jack Abramoff."

I see Colson's name - one would have thought that his experience with crooks and fools would have taught him some discernment when it came to further association with crooks and fools. I pick on Mr. Colson from time to time as it is clear that he learned nothing from prison except to avoid it. Mr. "I'd run over my grandmother for Richard nixon" got into trouble because he was a political thug. He has since continued in service to that thuggery.

The list above is a who's who of your movement in its political/religious nexus. The problem isn't Robertson who is so obvious a clown that he is generally denounced; the problem is that you folks don't seem to understand that the rest of that list is worse.

I don't buy into your theology, but if you are right in that, I hope, for your sakes, that you repent of the damage you have done to our nation before Judgement.

Good post Melinda - as I read your post it ocurred to me that more of us are afflicted with this disease of Robertson's than we might realize. Many claimed to know that Hurricane Katrina was God's judgment on New Orleans. That kind of stuff and Robertson's comments are what happens when people start claiming to be able to peer into the secret decretive will of God.

Hey Alan, could you give us more examples of Colson's "service to that thuggery"? Being an advisor to one organization does not necessarily typify his ministry.

RL, I wish he would stick to his prison ministry where he could do some good. The sad thing about our present state of affairs is the general thuggishness that has come to typify the leadership of the Republican party and the willingness of Conservative Christian and Jewish leaders to turn a blind eye.

Lapin, Medved, Falwell and Robertson, et al are corrupt fools and kool-aid drinkers who are attempting to justify some really bad stuff. Having seen this abuse close up in the Nixon Administration, I would have expected better of Colson. The thuggishness of which I speak was quite apparent by 2002 and the whole purpose of this group was to further consolidate the power that Norquest, Delay, Rove and Abramoff sought and which they have abused.

Read the link below and then listen to the kool aid drinkers talk from it this week and perhaps you will understand how close we are to the brink.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/563mevpm.asp

However sincere Colson and the rest of you may be about your issues, you have a responsibility to recognize when you are being conned. Chuck, with his history and being in leadership, has a tremendous responsibility and he is letting you down.

It's interesting that you (Alan) don't ever turn the same critical eye toward the Democrats and the Left (unless I missed it somewhere). I'm willing (as one on the "other side") to see that there are things that my side does that are wrong, but I see even more gross abuses of power by those on the Left.

As for "the list" you posted, perhaps Colson is trying to add a little sanity to the group, so I'm not sure a "guilt by association" applies here. Further, I wouldn't say an organization with an email list "100,000 strong" is on the short list of the most powerful groups in the nation. I can probably go buy an email list several times that long for twenty bucks.

I've listened to the Medved show from time to time and haven't heard anything approaching "thuggery" or "foolishness." What I *have* heard is clear, rational conservative thinking and reasoning through issues, and a great amount of time given and respect shown to callers, *especially* those with whom he disagreed.

I scanned part of the article (linked by you) and wasn't particularly impressed, and didn't see anything that justified your claims that those nasty Republicans/Christians/Jews were just "thugs", "fools", and (my favorite nonsense ad hominem) "kool-aid drinkers." Perhaps you could share with us how the consumption of a soft drink makes one morally evil. If you mean something else by it (yes, I know to what you are referring), then say what that is and give a defense for it.

Plus, Alan never did answer my request for more examples. Rather, he continued to lambast Colson. Paul pretty much covered what I was going to say. I'd like to add that the term "thug" should probably be reserved for real thugs like Robert Mugabe and Fidel Castro.

Color me unimpressed.

One other thing: "... I hope, for your sakes, that you repent of the damage you have done to our nation before Judgement."

What damage is it that I have personally done? Even if all the people on your list are actively seeking to destroy America, how am I responsible? One thing I *can* do is hold them accountable for statements and actions, and that is exactly what Melinda has done with this post, and what many in the Christian community do when such statements are made.

What about the damage to our nation from the Left? Abortion, same-sex marriage, attacks on religious liberty/expression? I know, you don't see those in the negative column. The point is that the things those on the Right do tend line up with our moral sensibilities (for the most part), and thus we feel no need to call on those leaders to "repent."

It seems I'm in the minority, but I'm not in shock and awe over Robertson's comment. I haven't seen the whole transcript but all quotes observed thus far say in effect that God is angry with those that divide His land. And, that it's just possible that God is judging one of those participating in the dividing process. None of us can say for sure that God has caused Ariel Sharon's stroke because of his leadership/participation in the division. But, I believe it would be unwise to dismiss the possibility that God can and very well may judge anyone, or any nation, in this manner. The Old and New Testments clearly speak of God judging disobedience w/ curses on the land, economic disaster, natural disaster, and desease. I could be wrong but that's the way I understand it. What is your belief on God's wrath/judgement in the present time?

Hi RL, if you voted for GWB you have helped damage this country,possibly beyond repair, if not, my apologies. If you have voted for a Rep for Congress, ditto. The left, Dems, etc. have their own problems but what is going on now is unprecidented. Check out another of your moral icons:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/10/096/27598

Could Sharon's stroke have been an act of God's wrath? Possibly. The point is that we're not able to say. Robertson didn't go right out and say that it was, but he did imply it.

I ran across an article that pointed out that Joel 3:2 was pointed not toward the people of Israel (including Sharon) but to conquering nations that had divided its land. It also mentioned that it's not clear that the Gaza Strip was even a part of Israel at the time. Robertson basically ripped a verse out of context, misapplying it to the present situation, then implied that the stroke was God's punishment on Sharon.

"Hi RL, if you voted for GWB you have helped damage this country,possibly beyond repair, if not, my apologies."

Heck, many said the same thing about Lincoln in his day, but nowadays most people like the guy. Could you explain how Bush has "damaged" the country? (Perhaps you would consider that I feel similarly about a number of Democrats whom you may or may not support.) Sure, he refuses to follow Europe's lead toward civilizational suicide, but nobody's perfect.

And since when is Ralph Reed one of my "moral icons"? I've never even heard of the guy. Alan, you're such presumptuous person that it's barely worth arguing with you. You assume I idolize all Republicans and conservative Christians. This is entirely untrue. You're simply trying to change the subject.

I'm still waiting to hear your evidence that Colson is buddy-buddy with Falwell, Robertson, etc.

On second thought, never mind Bush. Let's return from the bunny trails and discuss Colson etc.

Hi RL, there is a certain basic knowledge level necessary here. One is that one has to know the players. Things come together then. If you have never heard of Ralph Reed, I would respectfully suggest that you aquire a wider background in the history of the past forty years. The folks we are talking about have been players for quite a while and there are many interconnections. Google and ye shall find.

As another example of political and intellectual thuggery, I would offer the post above that references Chuck's outstanding analysis on gays and bestiality.

Alan, RL has no responsibility to be familiar with all of the "players" to have a say in the discussion. You seem to have the rather obvious opinion that all Republicans are evil and all Democrats are good. Compare that against RL's admission that he doesn't support everything every Republican has ever done. I would rather have RL's even-handed rational approach to the discussion than your intimate knowledge of every personality involved in the political landscape.

Oh, and I scanned the article/comments you linked (at tpmcafe), and forgive me for not taking too seriously a website that has such an obvious political axe to grind. Is this really what passes for "unbiased reporting" these days?

Alan: my apologies, you did write, "The left, Dems, etc. have their own problems but...". I'm not sure I'd call that even-handed, but I suppose you did recognize that the Democrats aren't all lily-white. You still have a long way to go in your proof that Bush/Republicans/etc. have "damage(d) this country, possibly beyond repair."

Ray, I have no problem with someone saying that "it is possible that (event X) is God's punishment for (person/group Y) doing (event Z)". What irks me (and others here) is when Robertson (and other high profile Christians) goes on record as saying that it was *definitely* God's punishment, that he (Pat) has received some sort of special revelation that this is the case.

Paul, can one have an understanding of American history and not know who Washington and Lincoln are. RR is a major player and knowing the players is a necessity if one is to understand history and current events.

There are no unbiased sources; that is why one needs to read a wide variety of them and be well grounded in the basics that one might evaluate.

The Republican party of today - Rove, Delay, Norquist, Bush - is corrupt beyond anything that we have previously experienced - the Gilded Age included. Add to that irresponsible fiscal policy, an unnecessary war, institutionalized torture and a radical view of the unitary executive and we have some serious problems. See Yoo and Mansfield.

Future historians will probably count the American Republic as having ended in December of 2000 following the coup by the gang of five on the Supreme Court. It would have been nice if the Dems hadn't rolled over, but they didn't get the stakes. I still have hope the Republic can be restored, or maybe I am just like one of those old Romans.

I wish we had the luxury of equally problematic Dems and Reps. Those days are behind us.

"Hi RL, there is a certain basic knowledge level necessary here. One is that one has to know the players. Things come together then. If you have never heard of Ralph Reed, I would respectfully suggest that you aquire a wider background in the history of the past forty years."

Sorry Alan, but once again, you're not addressing my response. I didn't say that Ralph Reed wasn't influential. I just said he wasn't one of my "moral icons," seeing as I'd never heard of him. Thus the frustration with your presuming he was.

"The folks we are talking about have been players for quite a while and there are many interconnections. Google and ye shall find."

People with similar beliefs do tend to have "political interconnections" when involved in the political scene for quite a while. That's hardly a cause for alarm (I imagine the same is true for your fellow libertarians). Perhaps you could point out where to begin, since you seem to think I don't know the "players." (By the way, I doubt Ralph Reed is on the same level as Lincoln and Washington, or for that matter, a large number of politicians still alive today.) Keep in mind that the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine.

"As another example of political and intellectual thuggery, I would offer the post above that references Chuck's outstanding analysis on gays and bestiality."

Well, I'd like to see the first example before you show me "another example." The above article hardly strikes me as "thuggery." Even if it's entirely wrong, it's simply a spurious correlation. (You'll have to remember that I'm not assuming the worst about these guys.)

"Future historians will probably count the American Republic as having ended in December of 2000 following the coup by the gang of five on the Supreme Court."

Hmmm.... "Coup"? The end of the American republic? No offense, but I'm going to have difficulty taking you seriously. You would have loathed Lincoln.

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