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March 28, 2008

Comments

That was cool. Me like.

Ok I can’t resist.

>> “There's a video on the page that answers the question, "When Does Life Begin?"

In this video, to answer the question they just built a stack of embryology books.

Assume that each quoted embryologist in those books says “Human life begins after fertilization.”

But ask yourself, how does the embryologist know this? How does he know when the property of “lifeness” attaches to a construct of atoms?

If we were arguing if Pluto should be called a planet or a rock. And I made a video and stacked books that contained experts who say Pluto is a planet, does this mean I won?

Is there an answer to the question?

Ultimately in both cases, you are just arguing for the adoption of your personal taxonomy. – the criteria you want people to use such that they will label matter a certain way – i.e. “life” and “planet”

"Assume that each quoted embryologist in those books says “Human life begins after fertilization.”

Slight correction on this. The claim is that human life begins at the time of fertilization, not after.

"But ask yourself, how does the embryologist know this? How does he know when the property of “lifeness” attaches to a construct of atoms?"

I don't think you can do this. The human life is not a material thing that can be attached to material objects as if being glued to them. However, there are physical characteristics that act as evidence or markers of the presence of a human life. These do appear at the time of fertilization.

I think that the concept of life you have put forth in your response is fundamentally flawed in that it misrepresents its true nature. That is to say, a human life does not take on material form, but uses materials in its environment to provide undeniable evidence of its presence.

>> "there are physical characteristics that act as evidence or markers of the presence of a human life."

But who among us holds the golden book which contains these "markers"? Whose taxonomy should we use and why?

">> "there are physical characteristics that act as evidence or markers of the presence of a human life."

But who among us holds the golden book which contains these "markers"? "

All of us do in the form of intuition. The concept of intuition that I mean is one of a unity of collections of evidence all pointing into a singular direction and refusing to point in any other, thereby forcing a single conclusion. These evidences require a degree of peripheral vision on the part of the observer who can take it all in and coalesce it into a whole based on the singularity of direction they all posses. A failure in doing so is a failure in vision and grasp.


"Whose taxonomy should we use and why?"


Human life is non-corporeal(according to the Christian view as evidenced by statement that we will acquire new bodies after this life, but will be the same people) and I don't know how you could even apply taxonomy to something like that. I'm not convinced you can.

>> But who among us holds the golden book which contains these "markers"? " All of us do in the form of intuition.

YES! This is the only answer you can really give. The abortion debate is not really about biology or science at all. It’s about whos “intuition” will win.

Pro-Choicer: “I don’t think this construct is human life.”
Pro-Lifer: “I think it is.”
Pro-Choicer: “How do you know?”
Pro-Lifer: “My intuition tells me so.”

This is the way you must argue. There is no other way. You’re trying to convince your opponent that she should utilize your intuition-originating taxonomic schema to divide the material world into bread baskets and babies.

Further interesting, is human intuition doesn’t seem to render a Christian viewpoint on this issue – as nicely evidenced in the famous burning ivf lab though experiment.

"If a fire broke out in a laboratory where the seven embryos were stored, and a two-month-old child was also in the laboratory, and only the embryos or the child could be saved, would anyone hesitate before saving the child? Of course not!"

- George J. Annas, "A French Homunculus in a Tennessee Court"

>> "I don't know how you could even apply taxonomy to something like that. I'm not convinced you can."

You're applying a taxonomy to a construct of carbon nitrogen oxygen and hydrogen - i.e. a totipotent cell.

>> But who among us holds the golden book which contains these "markers"? " All of us do in the form of intuition.

YES! This is the only answer you can really give. The abortion debate is not really about biology or science at all. It’s about whos “intuition” will win."

Without intuition, there would be no science.


"Pro-Choicer: “I don’t think this construct is human life.”
Pro-Lifer: “I think it is.”
Pro-Choicer: “How do you know?”
Pro-Lifer: “My intuition tells me so.”"

This is not a description of intuition in detail. There must be a presentation of evidence, in fact overwhelming amounts of it.


"This is the way you must argue. There is no other way. You’re trying to convince your opponent that she should utilize your intuition-originating taxonomic schema to divide the material world into bread baskets and babies."

A human life transcends the material. That is why science is too blunt a tool to dissect it.

"Further interesting, is human intuition doesn’t seem to render a Christian viewpoint on this issue – as nicely evidenced in the famous burning ivf lab though experiment."

Do you mean some kind of thought experiment? If so, thought experiments are political instruments not scientific ones.

"If a fire broke out in a laboratory where the seven embryos were stored, and a two-month-old child was also in the laboratory, and only the embryos or the child could be saved, would anyone hesitate before saving the child? Of course not!"

That does not change the moral equation, only an emotional one. Intuition has nothing to do with emotions. Emotions can often deceive a person into believing that something false is in fact true and therefore, are unreliable. Part of a political move in a discussion is usually an emotional appeal such as the one you present. You are not employing science to support your argument...you are employing politics. Political arguments do not sway me.

">> "I don't know how you could even apply taxonomy to something like that. I'm not convinced you can."

"You're applying a taxonomy to a construct of carbon nitrogen oxygen and hydrogen - i.e. a totipotent cell."

I could do that, but that would have nothing to do with our present discussion about a human life. You want to talk about the objects in the environment that a human life uses in order to be able to manipulate other things within that same environment. However, that is not a discussion of the life itself, only its tools.

Louis,

As a Christian, what do you think that intuition is? Do you think it is similar to common sense/practical wisdom? G.K. Chesterton is very fond of common sense. Is this the natural law written on our hearts?

Tony,

Have you investigated Van Til yet?

Tony said: "YES! This is the only answer you can really give. The abortion debate is not really about biology or science at all. It’s about whos “intuition” will win."

This sounds like you believe everybody's opinion is thrown out there for debate and whoever has the most power constructs reality according to their opinion. Very Darwinian. Or post-modern? Is that your position?

I think it is more about who's "intuition" matches reality.

I am always confused when you supply your own taxonomy of elements as if that is in some way more valid/real/accurate than any determination using biological science that concludes something is human, alive, or that human life has begin.

Tony said: "But who among us holds the golden book which contains these "markers"? Whose taxonomy should we use and why?"

Presumably you know the Christian answer. What is your answer and why do your think it is as good as or better?

Is there anything specifically that you believe the abort73.com video presents inaccurately?

William,

>> This sounds like you believe everybody's opinion is thrown out there for debate and whoever has the most power constructs reality according to their opinion.

Nah. I just think some questions are matters of opinion and some aren’t. Taxonomies are matters of opinion.

>> I am always confused when you supply your own taxonomy of elements

You mean the C N O H? Indeed the periodic table of elements is just another taxonomy. Ultimately we’re just talking about a region of space with matter and energy in it.

>> Tony said: "But who among us holds the golden book which contains these "markers"? Whose taxonomy should we use and why?" Presumably you know the Christian answer. What is your answer and why do your think it is as good as or better?

The answer to this question is a matter of opinion. It would be the same as asking me to go out and find the answer to the question “Is Pluto a planet or a rock.” There’s no discoverable property in a platonic realm somewhere (as in the case of physics or mathematics or logic). There’s just criteria and an adoption of a taxonomy for matter classification.

Tony,

>>Ultimately we’re just talking about a region of space with matter and energy in it.

No, we're not. On your schema, there's no "ultimately." "Space," "matter" and "energy" are just more taxonomic labels. As soon as you've made a statement about a region of space with matter and energy in it, while at the same time speaking as you do about taxonomies, you've given up any right to appeal to these as barebone components of reality. What's interesting is, even concepts like "ultimate" become arbitrary and lose all objective meaning if your view is carried to its logical conclusion. So does "taxonomy."

Aaron,

It's taken as a given here that the universe is composed of energy/matter.

Just what exactly the final indivisible unit is, is not of issue nor is it even known to exist.

I suppose you could argue with my premise: "Assume energy/matter exists."

But I don't think you're doing that, and that's a different branch of philosophy.

Tony,

OK, then please show that "energy" and "matter" are not taxonomies.

>>I suppose you could argue with my premise: "Assume energy/matter exists."

>>But I don't think you're doing that, and that's a different branch of philosophy.

You're right, I'm not arguing with your premise; I'm trying to show that your premise is meaningless if you maintain your conclusion. In other words, you have no grounds for assuming matter/energy exists, given your other position. If you claim that the human enterprise of taxonomization (new word?) is wholly arbitrary, then you cannot in the same breath also claim that there is something called "matter" and "energy" which we all must recognize as brute objects with any kind of consistency.

As always, Tony, a pleasure doing business with you. Are you still abroad? Oh, and good of William to remind you - have you read any Van Til, like I suggested?

Indeed matter is merely an expression of energy in a certain form. So to call one region of energy “matter” and one region, say, “electromagnetic energy” is indeed to apply a useful taxonomy.

Energy is a given property of the cosmos. Energy is not taxonomic. It IS the universe. See zero-point energy.

To apply a taxonomy here would mean saying:

“Assume this region of universe is universe, and this region is not universe.”

Nah I don’t follow philosophy much anymore. Once I became convinced that Christianity was false, there wasn’t much left but hedonism. Anything else is a waste of time – precious little time at that! Yeah I got back from Thailand and Israel 2 months ago. Just saving money to go back to ko phangan and rejoin the party! Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

O.T.

Tony,

Per your occasional statements on other threads that you hope/wish Christianity is true and now you say: "I don’t follow philosophy much anymore. Once I became convinced that Christianity was false, there wasn’t much left but hedonism. Anything else is a waste of time".

You may be interested in this post at Touchstone's Mere Comments:

http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2008/03/not-your-father.html#comments

Read the main post and then the comments. I am not suggesting that you fit the description of people that have lost their faith in the article. That is a question you can ask and answer yourself, nor do you need to share it with me.

As S.M. Hutchens says in the comments: "this posting is not very much about L'Abri. The subject is the allegation of loss of faith through the acquisition of knowledge when the real problem is more likely connected to ......"

Most people don't come to Christianity or leave Christianity because of 'knowledge' or arguments.

I'm the exception.

Tony, out of curiosity, what was the final straw for you? What argument finally pushed you out of Christianity?

Amy,

It has mostly to do with the proof Christianity didn’t provide. To believe the claims of Jesus Christ, I would need much more than old paper.


* * * SIDE BAR * * *

Hey did you guys see this story on Drudge?

British team makes mixed human animal embryos
http://tinyurl.com/yo63fe

Question: Are these creations “god’s people”? i.e. Are they in heaven now? i.e. Does god instantiate a soul and bind it to such cells just after the English lab technician finishes injecting the cytoplast?

I’m not completely sure, but I think the ‘non-human’ elements they talk about in the article were the mDNA and the evacuated cow eukaryotic. A different critter than us? Dunno. All depends on whose taxonomy you use. Truly the Linnean taxonomy is probably not sufficient to account for this.

Ideas? Is god’s “in gods image” threshold big enough to account for these little guys?

I’m trying to think of how I would answer if I were still Christian…I think I would say that the host cell, though from a cow, is merely the rendering device of god’s creation – the human genome. And that whatever you use to render the genome, is not particularly important. (though I’m not sure anyone knows the answer to this question because the labs always kill them before we can find out.) The mDNA while not human, is not a significant enough difference for God to halt the human soul instantiation and binding process - following cytoplast injection in the lab.

So yes, these constructs do have human souls and yes these lab techs are murderers.

I guess…

Gosh it’s getting harder and harder to know your brother these days. Hah. Prepare for the Island of Dr. Moreau people.

Its comminnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

>>It has mostly to do with the proof Christianity didn’t provide. To believe the claims of Jesus Christ, I would need much more than old paper.

So it wasn't that someone argued you out of Christianity... Then I have another question, if that's okay. I don't have to tell you that people offer more than paper as reasons (philosophy, history, etc.)--you know about those things...so does that mean that there's something else besides any of these kinds of reasons that you were looking to find? What was it that you were looking for but *didn't* find that finally pushed you over the edge?

Amy,

>> don't have to tell you that people offer more than paper as reasons

Most of the claims of Christ come to us with only old paper as evidence.

>> What was it that you were looking for but *didn't* find that finally pushed you over the edge?

I’ve thought a lot about what would convince me that the claims of Christ were true. The claims are so incredible that I think the only thing that would convince me would be to spend a few years with him. But even then, he better have something pretty impressive to say and show me. I wasn’t impressed with the bible at all.

I’ve noticed, there is a tendency in proselytizing sessions for Christians to focus on the arguments for a creator of the universe/man, and NOT on the arguments that Christ was God. Many of the arguments for God are quite good. Christians do pretty well in debates with atheists – but have you noticed the arguments that ‘Christ was God’ really don’t come into the picture at all in most debates. I think this is because the arguments for some flavor of monotheism are way better, than those supporting the claim that Jesus was God.

Christians have good reason to take issue with many of the secular unknowns.

My top favorite 3 listed again here below:

----------------------------------------------

1. Why is there something and not nothing (why does the cosmos exist?)

2. Epistemology: What is the nature of the laws of physics, logic, and reason? (Is Platonism true – how can a materialistic philosophical framework somehow account for the apparent existence of platonic forms?)

3. What is the nature of human and animal consciousness (is it merely a substrate-dependent epiphenomenon) and can we model it.

----------------------------------------------

Inserting a God to answer these questions does indeed tidy things up.

I just don’t think said God is Jesus anymore.

Sucks to be me!

So yeah, I’m just trying to have fun till I die or the world ends via some sort of existential disaster. Nick Bostrom has a fun video at the bottom of his website outlining the earth’s chance of making it. Pretty scarry.

www.nickbostrom.com

Extremely depressing to lose your faith. Thoughts of suicide constantly creep in. I try to push them back. My grandfather is in his 80’s now. He’s dying. He knows I used to be into this stuff and sometimes he asks me questions about God and if Jesus exists, etc. I guess staring death directly in the face causes one to want to be a little more sure. He’s been a Christians his whole life. But he’s scared of dying. I am too.

When he asks me my opinion about God, I lie through my teeth.

I tell him he’ll be with Jesus in paradise soon.

Thanks for being so open, Tony. So do you believe God exists, then? And if so, are you just trying to have fun because you don't know what will happen after you die or because you're pretty sure you'll cease to exist when you die?

You're right--this does sound like a horrible thing to go through. If Jesus is a fake, then death is scary if it's the end, and it's scary if it's *not* the end. And the worst part is that fun doesn't ultimately satisfy. I know some people who have lived only for fun, but I don't know anyone who has lived that way and been satisfied long-term with a life like that (just look at all the miserable, wealthy celebrities). I think you've said before that you wish you could believe, and I really hope for that as well. We'll keep hammering these things out with you, and who knows? Maybe you'll find what you need to find.

>>The claims are so incredible that I think the only thing that would convince me would be to spend a few years with him.

Here's something to consider...imagine for a moment that Jesus is God and Christianity is true. Even given that, it doesn't seem likely you would get the kind of proof you're asking for. So even if it's true, you'll never know...you've set your standard up this way. Why would you do that when so much is at stake--not just your future but your present life where you have to waste time and energy dealing with your fear of death?

Have you ever considered the approach of thinking through what you would reasonably expect to find (and not find) if Christianity were really true and then trying to look for those things?

oh totally. Hedonism puts you on a HORRIBLE spiral of ups and downs sometimes. I wouldnt recommend ANYONE listen to a word i'm saying.

>> what you would reasonably expect to find

I'd have expected the creator of the universe, the laws of logic, physics, and matter to have written a better book. And to have not used paper alone as evidence of his existance.

Tony,

I guess you didn't read the linked post.

Since this is way off topic and entering the realm of evangelism I am not sure that it is appropriate to ask you for personal answers but I do want to ask you questions that you can answer in your own mind. Share them if you want.

Tony said: "When he asks me my opinion about God, I lie through my teeth."

Why? If just because it makes you feel better: Why would it do that? If it makes him and you feel better: Why does it?

I don't think that you claim to be a materialist yet but are still agnostic, correct? If so, there is hope that you can see love as evidence of God. If there is a God why wouldn't you want to discover all you can about him? Why turn to hedonism?

Tony also said: "And to have not used paper alone as evidence of his existance."

Have you read:
Psalm 19
For the director of music. A psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge."

And also in Romans 1:

"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Tony said: "I just don’t think said God is Jesus anymore."

I don't see anything in this tread that indicates what made you belive this. I really wonder just how persistently you pursued answers to your questions about faith in Christ and the reliability of the Bible.

How much have you read C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, or any from the list of authors mentioned in the linked post? How about Craig Blomberg?

http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=2807


I find it hard to believe that they might not have some intelligent answers to your questions about Christ, the Bible, creation etc.

Unfortunately instead of investigating Christian sources you now look to hedonism while acknowledging it's ultimately unsatisfying.

Christ said in John 20:27-29:

27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

This is my prayer for you.

W,


>> I guess you didn't read the linked post.

Ya I did – why, did I miss something?

>> Tony said: "When he asks me my opinion about God, I lie through my teeth." Why? If just because it makes you feel better?

Because it makes him feel better. Why? Because Disneyland is more fun than worm food I guess.

>> Why turn to hedonism?

Cuz it’s fun for now. Then I’ll get a little older I might go back to academia.

>> Have you read: Psalm 19

Note that al those references point to a creator of the cosmos. They don’t evidence your belief that Christ was God.

>> "18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,”

Yeah but bad things happen to Christians to. Strange verse, I’m gonna file that one.

>> How much have you read C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, or any from the list of authors mentioned in the linked post? How about Craig Blomberg?

All but Van Til.

>> Unfortunately instead of investigating Christian sources you now look to hedonism while acknowledging it's ultimately unsatisfying.

Absolutely! Well it’s like a drug. It satisfies but then you need more right away. But after hearing JP Moreland speak on his book The Lost Virtue of Happiness, it seems that most Christians aren’t all that happy either so, I dunno.

>> 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Yeah Thomas at least got some pretty good evidence. But if I were him, I would still have my doubts. A lot of Jesus’ miracles are kinda iffy. Making more wine before the party runs out. Having a bunch of fish feed more people than they thought. I dunno, I’d expect more from the creator of the universe.


Hey Drudge has the embryo story on the top of the page today.

Come on people what is it? Man or beast?

>>But if I were him, I would still have my doubts.

You're actually not alone. Some of the people who saw Jesus after He rose from the dead still doubted (see Matthew 28:17). You see a man die, then you see Him alive, but you still doubt. I'm not sure why people would still doubt, except there is this: For some reason, we expect God to use flashing lights, heavenly music--you know, a big production--like Naaman wanted in 2 Kings 5:10-12. But imagine the miracle is simply perceived this way: you see a man dead, then you see the man alive. He's standing right in front of you in a very ordinary way--so real, so seemingly un-magical, that you easily convince yourself no miracle has happened. This human response speaks much to me about the simple reality of what they were seeing in front of them. Jesus was alive, Jesus was walking, talking, and eating as He always did. They, like you, wanted a show, so they missed the reality of what had happened.

>> You see a man die, then you see Him alive, but you still doubt.

It would be a nice start. Yet nobody here saw it happen. So, again, it just goes on the paper evidence pile.

Tony dood I don’t know you at all and I don’t even blog much… frankly Im not sure why I ventured to this site… but when I read some of your posts my heart went out to you…and I was halfway through this extremely long post when the power at my house went out for about 2 minutes… out of nowhere and I lost it all…so I took some time to write this again… so understand where im commin from and please read this… I’ll prove to you that Jesus is Gods Son… just take a few minutes to read this…
Alright…consider Judaism… you’ve been to Israel, and so have I, and you undoubtedly noticed that the Jews who do practice Judaism do it by the book…as it has been carried down through the years by tradition… If you’re familiar with the practices that they went through to keep the Bible (Old Testament) intact you’ll know that they copied line by line letter by letter to the best of their ability. If something was copied wrong they would through it out, but keep it in a jar, because it still contained God’s Word, that’s how sacred it was to them. Now consider the dead sea scrolls…which are virtually identical to the Hebraic scriptures we have to day; minus the names and places which change minutely overtime but are still the same ones. The Dead Sea scrolls therefore show without a doubt that the bible has been kept as it was given….. if it was kept for 2000 years the same way as it was…why would it not have been in the previous 1700 years from the time of Moses? The dates of the scrolls are not known in certainty, but were written from a sect in Judaism which lived by themselves and thought the rest of their ppl had been corrupted… probably written from 200 B.C. up until 70 A.D. (at the latest 70 A.D. when the temple was destroyed, this being the latest date due to the fact their were treasure maps describing the temple and its goods found with them.) The Isiah scroll is thought to have been written up to 200 years before Christ’s birth… check out Isiah 53…. Remember that the entire Old Testament was written by Jews, His chosen ppl… it had no Christian interference at all...Christianity wasn’t big enough to do anything to the scriptures until long after these scrolls were hidden when the temple was destroyed and subsequently the scrolls placed in the caves of Qumram hiding them from the Romans. Also the bible says that the Messiah would be rejected… if you read any blogs or websites in Israel you’ll notice that still today the majority reject Jesus as Messiah… this is largely due to the fact that Christians persecuted them for 2000 years… the cross became a symbol of persecution to them and hence…as it was done before to others…they took careful measures to ensure that Christian teachings were kept far from Jewish life. Therfore the Jewish scriptures were kept Jewish the people were not aware of the Christian teachings before Christ came, and didn’t like them after He did. With that established, here is where the fun part come in…tying in the Old Testament to prove that Jesus is in fact God.
Consider God’s name… it isn’t the English Version Jehovah… it was YHWH… which is still debated over, for pronunciation; because of the lack of vowels in Hebrew. With them it would probably be YAHWEH…interestingly, it is suppose to be written over 7000 times in the O.T., yet for fear of breaking the second commandment the scribes would replace it with Adonai… or LORD… because they believed that wherever it was written, and had a chance to be destroyed or defaced, there was a risk of taking God’s name in Vain…so understandably it was rarely written …and if you realize that Symbolism and metaphors and the such like has a huge place a huge role in the bible… the Hebrew Language and Judaism… we can take each of these letters which are words themselves and get: Y= Hand, H = Behold.. W = Nail… and then H again for Behold… HAND BEHOLD NAIL BEHOLD… in its context it equals to BEHOLD THE NAILED HAND… years before Jesus was crucified or that style of torture was practiced widely. Now Remember that any part of the hand would constitute the hand… in this case the wrist as the nails were put in His wrists to support weight… our definition today means nothing… taxonomy. Consider also the name of Jesus…. Yeshua… which means YHWH is salvation… or BEHOLD THE NAILED HAND IS SALVATION. That’s why the angel told Mary to call His name Jesus.
Also consider the names of the 10 first men from Adam to Noah… which are in the lineage of Jesus… from creation up until the flood… here’s how it goes: Adam= Man; Seth = Appointed; Enosh = mortal’ Kenan = sorrow; Mahalalel = the Blessed God; Jared = shall come down, Enoch = teaching; Methuselah = death shall bring (or send forth), Lamech = the root for lament, or “despairing’; and finally Noah = Rest, or comfort.
Put it in a sentence and it is… Man appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.
There’s the gospel message wrapped up in millennia old text…written by Jewish prophets and preserved by Jewish scribes throughout the ages.
Also Consider Numbers chapter 2… God told the Israelite armies to encamp around the tent of meeting where the ark of the covenant was for each of their tribes… look at it and add it up… the dimensions draw out a cross…marching eastward like so -+-- because they were going east toward the promised land…so from that direction you would visibly see a cross coming at you if you were up on a mountain Exactly what Balaam did in Number 24:5-7; he said the shout of a King is among them in verse 21…what King? JESUS CHRIST… again these are Jewish texts that were preserved by them…years before crucifiction, and especially the popularity of it.
Also the Talmund… The Rabbinical teachings handed down throughout the ages (extra-biblical), mention Jesus and say He was a magician who deserved His punishment…. It doesn’t write much more about Him because they didn’t believe He was Messiah.
Consider also that in the Hebrew Bible… the first verse…it says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… and it has at the left side of God (which would be the right side in English, because it goes from left to right while Hebrew is from right to left), Alef and Tav…. The first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet... for thousands of years people wondered why they were there… speculating of course… and not translating it into the English versions because it would just appear as ‘az’; the beginning and ending letters. In Greek this is rendered as Alpha and Omega …remember that the first disciples were Jewish and spoke Hebrew - not Greek – the language of the new testament (being translated into such afterwards)… even though it does give the same affect. So in the book of revelation Jesus would have said “I am Alef and Tav, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” – Revelation 1:8 ; instead of the King James which says “I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” Why is this important? Remember that John said “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God” John 1:1-2 He’s referring to this Alef-Tav in Genesis 1:1. God already knew He would send Jesus.
This is Dramatic when you realize that The Alef-Tav is also mention in Zechariah 12:10… and they render it as ME WHOM THEY PIERCED, Alef- Tav whom they pierced… – “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”
He’s reaching out to you… don’t deny it… of course Hedonism isn’t satisfying… nothing but Jesus is… no one can have any fulfillment without Him…that’s why we were created… read Psalm 22… all about the crucifixion, “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.” – Psalm 22:16… why did He do this? Cuz people have sinned! We’re born into sin… everyone knows right from wrong man…if there a moral law there must be a moral law giver… that’s the problem…people don’t want to believe because of sin “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
That’s our day…Why would you want to waste eternity for sin? Don’t make the wrong decision man just repent and put your faith in Him… He’ll change ya…He did it to me…man that’s a whole other blog post… don’t be full of pride and go to hell man… God is a just judge… He paid the price for sin on the Cross… that verse that Amy put up… Romans God’s wrath has been poured out from heaven…. On who? It doesn’t say on the sinners it says on ungodliness and wickedness OF men…where was that done? The cross…God spared not His only Son, He layed the sin on Him and judged the spotless Lamb…. On Passover! The same time it happened when they were freed from Egypt by the blood of a lamb!… the sky went dark for 3 hours straight as God denied His Son so He could accept you… “Julius Africanus – “Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun- unreasonably as it seems to me””
“Paul Maier- “This phenomenon evidently was visible in Rome, Athen, and other Mediterrenean cities – According to Tertullian… It was a “cosmic” or world event.” “Phlegon, a Greek author from Coria writing a chronology soon after 137 A.D., reported that in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (i.e, A.D. 33) theres was “the greatest ecplipse of the sun” and that it became night in the sixt hour of the day [i.e. noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bythinia, and many things were overturned in Nicea”” Paul Maier – Pontius Pilate Lee Strobel – A Case For Christ
“ And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” – Matthew 18:3-4

Theres some of the sources

http://www.therefinersfire.org/christian_antisemitism.htm

http://www.bereansonline.org/outlines/messiah-gen-2.htm

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/284/

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/Discipleship/Names_of_God.aspx

woops that last one was http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/ BibleStudyAndTheology/ Discipleship/Names_of_God.aspx

but yeh check it out for yourself...search it somewhere else

Michael,

Aren't you that guy i met at Venice Beach that day?

>> Y= Hand, H = Behold.. W = Nail… and then H again for Behold… HAND BEHOLD NAIL BEHOLD… in its context it equals to BEHOLD THE NAILED HAND…

: )

The STR staff don't like the 'bible code' arguments bro.

I don't either.

nope not that guy... thats not bible code...bible code is where you take words and letters at certain intervals and add them up to see what it is... checked that out once n it was interesting but thats a whole branch of masthematics and theory in itself ...sure God could have done that...did He? But pointing out that God's name is the Behold The Nailed Hand is just there... anyone who knows Hebrew can tell you that.. just because we don't speak it doesn't mean its a code... what about the 10 first people from Noah... doesnt take any degree if you know what the names mean.... thats pretty easy to read right out of the book... again if you know Hebrew or have a good reference Bible

i mean to say....but did He? that i dont know...

Tony said: " if I were him, I would still have my doubts"

No, if Thomas were you he would have your doubts :). If you were Thomas you would confess "my Lord and my God".

Tony also said: "I’d expect more from the creator of the universe."

I suspect that you still would not be satisfied. It will take the work of the Holy Spirit don't you think?

Read Luke 16:19-31 for Jesus' example of the rich man and Lazarus.

Also see 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 which ends : 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

Hedonism is an old story, see Ecclesiastes 2 which starts: "I thought in my heart, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good." But that also proved to be meaningless."

The book finishes: "13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."

Don't waste yourself on hedonism. You are worth too much for that.

Will,

Yes notice, all those verses still don't evidence christ. They merely assail those that don't believe.

Which, like i said, is why i think most people don't come to christ for reasons sake.

Tony,

Well, I would say that "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" does evidence Christ as does Thomas' confession but I agree that my intent in citing the verses was not first meant to evidence Christ.

Tony said: "i think most people don't come to christ for reasons sake."

This may be true but it doesn't make reason as contradictory to faith or rule it out as a step in the process to faith. Hebrews 11:1 deals with this.

John 10:1-18 gives a description of the relationship of the faithful to Christ. In part it says "He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice."....14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."

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