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July 23, 2009

Comments

This is somewhat off topic but in the same genre as this post. Something that has and continues to plauge me about the 'pro-life' movement, or maybe even just christianity in general is the de-emphasis on sexuality properly understood. Maybe thats because the majority of people themselves dont even properly understand it. By that I am referring to the why in abstinence. Not abstinence for abstinence sake, but how deeply warped our cultures preception of beauty & sexuality have become, and as a result have caused a plethora of issues which meet thier darkest pit in the form of abortion.

Having once been an incredibly promiscuous and porno-addicted man, I can say first hand how unfufilling such a lifestyle is and how much illusion chasing, sorrow, and impotence abusing your sexuality can lead to. And having more recently understood the biblical (and not coinsidently, correct) interpretation of how one should express his or her sexuality, I wonder why I even did the things I used to.

I think kids grow up not having understood what it means to have friendships and relationships in a deep and fufilling manner that doesnt involve sex, which in its currently understood context does not lead to "deeper connections" or whatever other 'reasons' people have for messing around with flings and other things of frivolity. Which in turn leads to the problems we have infront of us, and I think christians have in some senses failed to convey this message of sexuality as the Bible intends it to be. And because of this, it is difficult for us to encourage kids (and adults for that matter) not to endage in such acts out of thier proper contexts. And until we gather this understanding ourselves, we will never really understand why we are telling children and our peers to abstain. Just kinda say it, with no real force behind it.

The works of Marva Dawn and Lauren F. Winner come to mind. I cant really think of any men who have spoken on this subject. Although I should mention Mark Driscoll's song of solomon series (though perhaps excessive at times) was extremely benificial and is one of the few persons I know of who have spoken on this issue from a masculine perspective. I would love to hear more.

Anyways, thats where im at.

Sexualitron,

Don't be too quick to knock promiscuity. In benefiting from the Song of Solomon, you are benefiting from one of the most sexually promiscuous men of all ages, a wise man who gleaned sexual secrets from cultures the world over:

King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.
(1 Kings 11:1-3)

PP: Description of behavior is not approval of behavior. Given that, could you clarify your point?

Sexualitron: Your words and honesty are deeply appreciated.

S500 G652 (real name?), my point is simply that in learning about lovemaking from the Song of Solomon, Sexualitron is indebted to a man with a great deal of cross-cultural sexual experience. There's a lesson here: if you want to learn about lovemaking, don't go to the Pope, some celibate priest, a nun, or even the letters of St. Paul. Experience counts and ought not to be despised.

Sexualitron:

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse wrote a decent book called "Smart Sex: Finding Life Long Love in a Hook-Up World" (http://www.jennifer-roback-morse.com/smart_sex/index.html?action=Product&ProductID=80) that you may find helpful. She explains a lot of the biological reasons for abstinence and monogamy.

She is also an economist and has some really interesting things to say about the societal costs of promiscuity. http://www.jennifer-roback-morse.com/articles/Love_Econ.html

S500 and Naturallawyer I appreciate your comments, and Nat thankyou for the referral!

PP,

"Don't be too quick to knock promiscuity."

With respect, what do you mean by that?
I was aware of what you said of Solomon from quoting Kings, though im not sure which book is older. Not entirely important.

So then what are you saying? Its good to sleep around so you can 'get a feel' for what its like to live in sexual slavery? Is that a good thing? Would it be better for me to abuse my sexuality than to develop it as God intended? Not to mention, when you say I benifit from the teachings of Song of Solomon, the book isint about a man who slept with thousands of women. Song of Solomon doesnt even endorse promiscuity.

Again, I am convinced, having tried to do it my way, promiscuity, quite frankly, sucks. Can you learn something from it? Sure. Can you learn something from killing someone? Yes, you can. I understand what your saying, but dont confuse learning a lesson with endorsing a sinful lifestyle. Better to not sin, than to sin.

Too, PP, King Solomon, as evidenced in ecclesiasties, was one of the most lavish men of all time. Perhaps the. And what does he have to say about it? He says that its meaningless and leads to nothing. And its true. A strange bit of early existentialist writing. Thankfully we can learn from his mistakes, and I am greatful for it but as I said in my earlier post we dont need to repeat those mistakes.

Im sorry for posting three times in a row, but I missed this one,

"if you want to learn about lovemaking, don't go to the Pope, some celibate priest, a nun, or even the letters of St. Paul."

Yes, dont go to any of those. Get a spouse!

Why is teaching about contraceptives considered a "danger"? If we accept that sex is going to happen, then shouldn't we be doing our best to encourage safe sex? Only teaching "abstinence only" is unrealistic in the current socio-political context and will only lead to ruin for those who do not accept your understanding of sex and then get pregnant or get AIDS because they weren't properly educated and didn't know how to take the proper precautions.

I too am a man who for many years, even while calling myself a "Christian", engaged in a wordly appetite of causal flings and pornography. The results, once I did get married and tried to settle down, were disasterous. I ended up hurting the woman I was supposed to love the most, and it has been the most regretful thing in my life. My "causal sex" mindset, being widely promoted in our culture, destroys our ability to truly love another, makes us into self-focused "users", and obliterates the special spiritual intimacy that comes only through a Godly sexual union.

"Sex education" in the public schools cannot even mention the spiritual dimensions of sex, and even the emotional aspects are glossed over. It's treated like a parlor game, just having "fun" with your body. Contraceptive and condom education give a false sence of security against the most obvious biological hazards. The spiritual and emotional hazards are swept under the rug. We are selling our children down the road, teaching them to lust and use rather than truly love and be faithful. The social consequences are obvious. God is not mocked and His truth will not be denied.

Kevin,
If we accept that sex is going to happen, then shouldn't we be doing our best to encourage safe sex?

If we accept that slavery is going to happen, then shouldn't we be doing our best to encourage safe slavery?

Do you agree?

Only teaching "abstinence only" is unrealistic....for those who do not accept your understanding of sex and then get pregnant or get AIDS because they weren't properly educated and didn't know how to take the proper precautions.

Out of the people who are of the appropriate age for having sex, who doesn't know that pregnancy or AIDS is a possibility when having sex?

Thank you for gettng to that first, Tom.

Dear Greg,

This makes sense. PP is one of the most devious organizations ever to be loosed upon our children. There is certainly no reason why we should shirk our responsibility as Christians or just caring adults to honor and guide these vulnerable children. Amen.


OT: I have a question that is off topic. I am hoping you can give me some guidance. I am Tea Party Organizer, and I would like to know how I can protest in Godly way? I've wanted to open to open with prayer, but it seems that things just go so fast I lose the opportunity. I don't allow cussing. People are very angry, however, about the money issues, the abortion issue, the takeover of (everything!) many things, etc. I need help. I hope you can help. Thank you. God bless your family and you.

"Why is teaching about contraceptives considered a "danger"?


Kevin, teaching safe sex isint neccessairily a danger.. But sex in the wrong context is, unsafe sex. Condom or not. My big big big big big big big big problem with planned parenthood and unfortunately some abstinence teaching is how just, silly sex has gotten in our society and our apparent inability to get a grip on this whole mess that we have made of human sexuality. Certainly im not, blame shifting to culture for my terrible track record, absolutely not. Its just... I want to rip my hair out and like, shake someone and just tell them.. Please, please dont! Just stop! Nobelwar is dead on! As of right now, I am literally incapable of committing to a woman and I am taunted with promiscuous thoughts even when I try to have normal conversations with attractive women. My mind as of right now is so warped. I can see my post going off in the wrong direction so ill stop thier, but Kevin.... If I can say one coherent statement, it is that sex, as our society treats it, from avenues like MTV, or planned parenthood, is just so dang corrupted. Its a shame. I have lots more to share, but I suppose ill stop there for now.

BTW:

"Only teaching "abstinence only" is unrealistic in the current socio-political context and will only lead to ruin for those who do not accept your understanding of sex"

Especially, as it pertains to this, I say thats as good as warning someone who does not accept my understanding of gravity. Thats what im getting at. Not being dogmatic about it (I do think you should teach safe sex). I just take serious issue, as mentioned earlier by someone here, with the absolute underscoring/non-discussion of atleast the emotional ramifications of 'casual sex'. Either way, if you engadge in this sort of behavior its going to lead to varying degrees of ruin. Safe sex or not. And by the literal grace of God maybe you (not you) will be spared the ruin I am currently experiencing.

It'd be nice if sex education included the fact that "hooking up" is completely at odds with the biological facts regarding women (oxytocin in bonding, etc.). If more girls were informed what it means when they have sex with someone, they might be a bit more cautious than their feminist mothers were.

Tom,

"If we accept that slavery is going to happen, then shouldn't we be doing our best to encourage safe slavery?

"Do you agree?"

If that were the reality, then, yes! If I lived in a time when slavery was accepted and the conditions were not right for emancipation, then I would indeed focus on what can be accomplished, what can be done to improve the conditions as they are. It's called working with the situation, which will get a lot more accomplished than shooting for something that the current context simply will not allow.

"Out of the people who are of the appropriate age for having sex, who doesn't know that pregnancy or AIDS is a possibility when having sex?"

Yes, they know about the "possibility", but they are often woefully ignorant about exactly what precautions to take. There are dozens of "wive's tales" (or "teen's tales") about when someone can and cannot get pregnant that it is difficult for many teens to know the difference. This needs to be accounted for.

Sexualitron,

Yes, I agree that mere physiological sex education is inadequate. Even the best work of secular sexologists include the emotional component when discussing sex, especially sexual dysfunction. It is realized that the emotional component is important and there is not a void in their research. This should be included in the educational programs. I think the problem is that we are relying too heavily on old sex ed programs and their information (with a few minor updates) so we are missing the latest work. A comprehensive reform is needed, whether you believe in abstinance-only or not.

Naturallawyer,

I hardly think that oxytocin is sufficient to demonstrate that "hooking up" is "completely at odds with the biological facts". Granted, I don't believe in meaningless sex for the simple fact that I don't think any sex is ever meaningless and I am a firm believer in the power of sex to change lives in a positive way (what you might call "spiritual sexuality"). But I don't see how that is sufficient to demonstrate the virtues of monogamy (as opposed to, say, polyamory [i.e. the belief that *genuine love* can be greater than a two-person relationship]).

But, still, I do agree that the emotional aspects must be addressed, which can show the potential emotional dangers of a promiscuous life.

The problem is that “sex education” is often made to be fun. As in, let’s have a good time with it. Everyone laughing while putting a condom on a banana. What signal does this send to young kids? What message about the seriousness of sex and its consequences? What does this convey about the value of human life?

Many people often like to say “abstinence only” is a big joke. Well, there is no doubt their brand of “sex education with a smile” inflicts much more pain and suffering on our society.

By the way,

Kevin W and Kevin Winters are different people (obviously). I’ve been on and off this great site for years, but I think I may change my posting name to be less confusing.

I'm thinking KWM.

Hahahaha, I figured by your drastically different viewpoints.

p.s
I had a good laugh @
" Everyone laughing while putting a condom on a banana. What signal does this send to young kids?"

Because its so true! LOL! Gosh.

And Kevin Winters, yes, I agree with you on some key points you made in your response, which I would like to respond to at a later moment if possible

Sexualitron:

I can hear your passion in your posts, since you have been through the fire also. I have good news in that God was able to change my heart and mind and I am no longer a slave to my sex drive. It was a HUGE struggle, but His Word says we will "be transformed by the renewing of our minds". I don't do anything to "feed the wolf (the lustful flesh)", but everything I can to feed Gods Spirit in me. The wolf won't die until God takes me home, but I can keep him so starved and weak he does not put up much of a fight. That is my choice in the matter. I can't fix the mess I already made, but I still can be the man God made me to be. You can too, and I will be praying that your story will also have a victorious end!

God bless you!

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