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July 26, 2009

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>> "What makes us equal? It can't be our body size, ...So what makes us equal? From all over the room, tiny voices shot back "We’re all human!"

If I was in the audience I would have asked how much genomic variation does God allow in the classification of "humans".

Given that Roy Britten's 2002 estimate put Chimp's at about 5% different, I wonder how much a genome can vary before Scott doesn't call it "human" anymore.

I would also ask why I should accept his number, over any other.

"If I was in the audience I would have asked how much genomic variation does God allow in the classification of "humans"."

I'm guessing that if it's mom is a human and it's dad is a human - good chance that the child is a human. I think the kids in that grade school could figure that out even with genomic variation.

Is it possible to have two human parents and not be a human??

Well how might we test his mom for "humanness"?

What test do you want to use?

I have often wondered if showing pictures (on a bulletin board for example) of the child's development in the womb would be an effective way of communicating the pro-life message. This would demonstrate the positive case for life, without the negative reactions that people have when seeing pictures of the unborn after an abortion. (Not that I am against the use of graphic images per say).

ToNy,

The same way we would test you...we don't. It's obvious.

"Well how might we test his mom for "humanness"?"

ToNy

Are you planning on conducting a test on your mom? ;)

ToNy: are you willing to concede that abortion is wrong for everyone whose humanity cannot be disputed? If not, then your objection is irrelevant. If so, then you must join our cause and fight against 99.9999% of abortions, because there is a slaughter of innocents taking place.

Anthony,

we could take the genome sample derived via the human genome project, and then pick a number of variance - from which our subject is allowed to vary.

but I don't know what number to pick, nor how I might convince people that my number is right

Louis,

nah

but i'd like a number for taxonomic purposes

natruallawyer,

assume i aggree that one ought never abort a human.

now we just gotta choose a number for which genomes are human, and which arent

Tony: "If I was in the audience I would have asked how much genomic variation does God allow in the classification of 'humans'."

How about 0%?
Do you honestly not know the difference between humans and other species?
As Greg has stated in his 'aspirin vs. arsenic' comparison, it's the differences that matter, not the similarities.

Dpierre

well you can't choose 0 because then there would only be one human on the planet.

ToNy
"but i'd like a number for taxonomic purposes"

I don't think that numbers are up to the task.

Louis,

Well if a chimp is 5% different than Louis, and Tony is about .1% different than Louis, might Louis say that any construct that is .15% different than Louis is not a child of God.

This is an important question, as it is quite possible to create a slave labor class, which we could use to do, well anything. Particularly hazardous work like land mine clearing, and borring assembly line work like assembling simple products.

If we could tweak the existing chimp genome, to make him a little smarter and a little more docile, could we then use him as slave labor in our factories - the same way we use other beast of burden?

Where is the line at which a beast of burden becomes a child of god?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee

ToNy,
You are trying to test something that can't be tested (in my opinion)- conscience.
When you have a full blown conversation with a chimp and he's sorry for lying, then I'll look into a genome test. Until then, I'm going with "if the parents are human, the offspring is human". I'm siding with the 2nd graders on this one!

Anthony,

i have a video of koko apologizing for lying.

but i dont wanna scan it

here's one of him crying over his dead cat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdACUfI6nA0

heres one of kanzi following the instructions of novel sentences

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE

So one could see, that with some modification of hte chimp genome, we could get them to do things like

"put the landmine in the bunker"

or

"pick them oranges from the tree"

ToNy
"Well if a chimp is 5% different than Louis, and Tony is about .1% different than Louis, might Louis say that any construct that is .15% different than Louis is not a child of God."

The difference? What difference are you measuring?

"This is an important question, as it is quite possible to create a slave labor class, which we could use to do, well anything. Particularly hazardous work like land mine clearing, and borring assembly line work like assembling simple products."

I think that is already going on on certain parts of the world. I heard they were also soldiers. They're called children.


"If we could tweak the existing chimp genome, to make him a little smarter and a little more docile, could we then use him as slave labor in our factories - the same way we use other beast of burden?"

To start with...it is a big if. There is also the point you make here that it is level of inteligence that makes someone a human being. There are some folks with a pretty low I.Q. that are clearly human beings.

"Where is the line at which a beast of burden becomes a child of god?"

I don't think we were talking about becoming a child of God. We were talking about being human beings. It is the same problem that faced alchemists in their quest for a philosopher's stone. You can't get there from here. Something either is gold or it isn't...you can't take led and turn it into gold. You can't take a chimp and make him into a human being. A thing is itself and not something else, but more importantly...it can't become another kind of being.

Louis,

>> "It is the same problem that faced alchemists in their quest for a philosopher's stone. You can't get there from here. Something either is gold or it isn't...you can't take led and turn it into gold."

What the... ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Are you crazy or something?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation

You'de actually have to trick yourself out of being able to distinguish the difference between a human, and a chimpanzee. I suppose you are asking why humans are given more worth? Perhaps?
Well, I say when apes collectively come up with something amazing (a cure for some haneous disease, or maybe ill settle for something that allready exists), we can consider including them in the reign of humanity.

And thanks to Roy Britten, we now know that apparently 5% makes a huge difference!

ToNy

">> "It is the same problem that faced alchemists in their quest for a philosopher's stone. You can't get there from here. Something either is gold or it isn't...you can't take led and turn it into gold."

What the... ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Are you crazy or something?"

Hmmmm...I seem to have been uninformed. But that hardly qualifies as crazy. I guess it is easier to transform led to gold than to change one kind of being to another. It is easier to manipulate elements than it is to change a creature's soul.

Louis,

>> "I seem to have been uninformed."

uhmmmm, ya

>> "You can't take a chimp and make him into a human being. A thing is itself and not something else, but more importantly...it can't become another kind of being."

Hmm

Are you saying you can't start with the genomes of simple life forms, and make them more complex, or adapt them for our desires?

Do you think Craig Venter will fail then?

Venter Video

Severity

So how might you solve the species problem?

if it's so 'un-tricky'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

Hi Tony:

Would you suggest that the clerk at the local gas station that was gunned down in a robbery be tested for humanness before the offender tried for homicide in court?

Thanks

ToNy, I am incredibly aware of the species problem, but thankyou for the reminder :)

But if your asking me to solve the species problem, speciffically as it relates to this issue? I have a very simple answer. Place 200 apes, Gorillas, Chimpanzees and assorted beasts in one room (room A), and place Asians, Blacks, Whites, Canadians, Cambodians, and assorted humans in the next room (room B). And then present this "quiz" to a focus group.

Ask the following question;

Which Group Contains Humans?

Which Group Contains Monkeys?


And then kindly inform them of a possible consequence for not being able to make the distinction.
;)

Severity,

Yes exactly.

Taxonomy is about majority rule and an appeal to higher ethical law.

It has NOTHING to do with science.

It's hard to get Christians to understand this point.

Does tony seriously want us to believe that the distinction between human and bobo isn't obviously clear? If that is suspect, i submit to Cartesian doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_biology

ToNy

"Are you saying you can't start with the genomes of simple life forms, and make them more complex, or adapt them for our desires?

Do you think Craig Venter will fail then?"

To create a whole new species? Yes. He will fail. I am convinced that the best he can do is descent with modification within the species. He will not come up with a distinctly new and unique body plan.


Louis,

>> best he can do is descent with modification

How much modification would Venter need to make, before Louis calls the resulting construct a "new species"

Do you have number?

Can I choose a number, or do I have to use yours?

"
How much modification would Venter need to make, before Louis calls the resulting construct a "new species"

Do you have number?

Can I choose a number, or do I have to use yours?"

I take it that my statement "He will not come up with a distinctly new and unique body plan." was not clear enough? I think we will know it when we see it. So, let him produce it and we'll examine it and make that determination at that time. Speculation in a vacuum is not productive.

Louis,

>> I think we will know it when we see it.

Really

There is a lot of discussion about whether the Baltimore Oriole and the Bullock's Oriole are two different species, or one.

You can see them on Google Images.

Ok, so now you've "seen it".

Do you "know it"?

Can you resolve the species problem for us. It would make a lot of biologists happy Louis. We need your cosmic intuition desperately!

ToNy

There is a lot of leg pulling on the internet. Are you pulling mine?

nope

answer the question

ToNy,

I answered your question twice through reiteration. Let me repeat it for a third time "He will not come up with a distinctly new and unique body plan." What does your avian example have to do with my criteria? It must be that one of them is actually swimming under water and uses gills to breath. It can't possibly be that scientists are getting all tangled up in language rather than in what a thing actually is. After all, if they were tangled up in language, they would be linguists and not scientists.

you said when you see two different constructs, you'd be able to tell if they were or were not two different species.

Which would be an amazing thing.

So are they, or aren't they?

No.

I say Yes.

What axiom might you site to prove me wrong?

I am not interested in proving you wrong. My interest is in the truth.

ok
what axiom might you cite to prove the truth?

Look, I would expect to have a difference of a level of vertebrate vs. invertebrate as an example. The bird example you posted here is not splitting hairs, it is splitting something that is already reduced to a level that is impossible to split further. You can pretend, with fancy play of words, that you've done it, but it is just playing with words.
Besides, even if such a thing were possible for man to accomplish, it would be designed, not evolved. I just don't think that you can easily explain the specified complexity of the hierarchical organization of information as expressed in the double helix, nor can neo-Darwinian model account for the origin of that information. Many wrecks of failed attempts litter the highway of science.

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