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September 18, 2009

Comments

I certainly hope that if I ever get in a situation where I need the assistance of a doctor to end what has become unbearable to me I'll be able to get it.

RonH

RonH - the hope I have is not about the pain of dying, that will pass. It is that whatever pain I feel that it is tempered by the hand of a loving God in whom I trust. He has proven Himself to me in very painful situations. My hope and prayer for you is that you gain this trust by getting closer to Him now, before you start to depend on yourself or doctors. We all fall short of understanding this life and death.

Andrew Perez

Fine things for you to say, I'm sure. Whatever. The thing is: would you prevent me thinking and doing differently? If so, how do you aim to accomplish it?

RonH

Maybe I am missing something, but RonH, if you want to kill yourself, you are technically able to. Go buy a gun (and some bullets if you can find them), put it under your chin and pull the trigger. There are a number of other ways to end your life....the issue (I am thinking big picture) is that it is becoming legal and "encouraged" to do so. Just because you can do something, doesnt make it right.

And I second Andrew's statements, instead of kicking against the goads, place your faith in Christ for eternal life. Its a MUCH better ride I assure you.

DW,
What you are missing is that someone in intensive care, on morphine, etc can't 'go buy a gun'. Gee, my Enter key just quit. RonH

My question is: why a life expectancy of six months? Why not, say, seven or eight?

KWM,
Why a speed limit of 30 mph and not 31 or 32? A better question would be Why any life expectancy parameter? RonH

It seems that nine months would be more defensible. Then we could put them on the same footing as the unborn. If society says that a person should have nine months to decide if a thing is a person or not, then it seems nine months would fit wonderfully here. We could really even extend it further since some politicians even claim that having been birthed is not enough to bestow the protections of personhood.

I think the most chilling paragraph is the last but really echoes the cry of many abortionist in this country -- base the decision on economics.

RonH,

I think you make a couple of mistakes here. 1.) You’re comparing two things that cannot be compared. A speed limit is limited precisely to protect citizens from hurting themselves and, most importantly, others. The limit on life expectancy is no such thing. Whether or not you can kill yourself, at this time or that, has no impact on my safety.

2.) My question was introduced only to draw attention to the nature of the argument. If the argument for physician assisted suicide is sound, I don’t see why the law need restrict it (your better question). In other words, an argument for a specific limit is bogus and arbitrary. Because the restriction is precisely what those that advocate for PAS want to remove.

I'm sure if Obamacare passes no one will have to worry about suffering because for "economic" reasons the wonderful US government will gladly end your life for you.

Won't life be beautiful when daddy government will take care of everything for you!

I also find it interesting that pain isn’t a criterion. For example, if one doesn’t meet the life expectancy restriction, but is in tremendous pain, with 2 years to live. What then? In other words, what about pain?

Should they have PAS candidates circle the appropriate face on the smiley face chart to rate their current pain? Then do we hook them up to a lie detector to see if they’re telling the truth? Maybe we get the doctor’s opinion of what he or she thinks is the level of pain they think the patient is going through?

RonH, I dont think I am missing anything, the person didnt just "all of a sudden" get to intensive care on morphine. Take the late Patrick Swayze. I am familiar with pancreatic cancer, so I will use this as an example. He, when told 2'ish years ago that he would die within x period of time due to pancreatic cancer, could have went out back and blew is brains out.

And quite frankly, if a person is on morphine...they aint feelin' no pain. Again, I think you are missing the bigger picture.

Sorry to hear about your enter key. One of the reasons I tell my wife not to throw up my spare keyboards (if it is a hardware issue).

Why would daddy government be interested whether I want to end it all or who helps me. If a doc helps me no reason he shouldn't be paid.
Hmm.. Enter key works in other applications. Sometimes even here. I think pain is taken for granted and is subjective anyway. How do you tell how much pain someone else is in? So a short life expectancy - with some kind of number on it - is about the only restriction one can specify objectively. An exact length has to be selected. Even if no particular number jumps out as the best. We have a love of round numbers. Why have any restriction? Because it reduces opposition and limits unintended unexpected consequences. RonH

in certain ways it is the same reason daddy government cares about who (or what) you marry. Why should the government care if I want to marry my toaster or my sister? Why should the govt care if I want to off my neighbor. Why do they have to get into my business if I want to torture my kids for the heck of it? Its my life and they are my kids.

Why shouldnt people just mind their own business and let me do whatever I want to do? (please realize that these are all rhetorical questions).

I didn't ask any of those questions whatever their merit. I asked only: Why would daddy government be interested whether I want to end it all or who helps me.

Generally freedom is the default. Your Right To Swing Your Arm Ends Where My Nose Begins

RonH

"general freedom is the default"? Why do think that general freedom is the default?

My best friends Dad (and I say soberly the only father I have ever really had) was diagnosed with a terminal cancer and given 6 months to live. Praise God he is still walking with us for however long God allows. I dont know what kind of help they give to these terminal patients, but I really dont think that assisted suicide is a good idea. Death is painful, but its not the end.

"was diagnosed with a terminal cancer and given 6 months to live."

Forgot to add the next part, "its been about a year since that Diagnosis"

AMN, Praise God!

RonH - the reason I take the time to discuss these things is because," death is painful, but its not the end." (Thanks Antonio) The issue is life. You know as well as I, your going to live beyond this temporary place. God himself has put eternity in your heart (Ecc 3:11), you may try to ignore, it won't help. Take the chance that Jesus is the Savior, making a place for you to live forever. He's real. Ask Him to be part of your life now before it is too late. No string attached. Put it in His hands, He’s better than a doctor or a pill.

The issue is life.

That's right. My life.

You are welcome to try to persuade me of how to live it. Just don't try to coerce me. In particular don't try using the government to coerce me.


RonH

RonH, The government is used all the time to coerce people to live a certain way.....unless you run red lights with no thought, dont pay your taxes, walk around with a holstered weapon(I assume you dont live in a state that "allows" open carry), etc.

RonH - it is God Himself that has been calling you (yes, you) from the foundations of the earth. You can freely read about it in the worlds best selling book of all time, "The Bible." Before you read ask God to open His word to you and begin. Find some friends that study the Bible, a church might help, one that preaches Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior.

Andrew,

Thanks for your advice. Let me return the favor.

We're all hurtling through the vacuum of space on a vulnerable little spaceship. A variety of things could snuff us all out at any time with little warning and no purpose.

Nobody put us here. Rather than despair, I take that as a challenge. My view is: All we have is each other. We alone are responsible for each other and those who will come after us. If we work together who knows what our descendants my become.

We need to figure out how the ship works, what all the threats are that are arrayed against it, how to protect it from those threats, what the universe it travels in is like, how to keep from being the cause of our own destruction, etc.

If we are all wiped out some day by an asteroid or a nuclear winter those living at the time will resent the time you spent preaching made up stuff as if the real world didn't matter - time you could have spent trying to help figure out what is really going on in the world, how to best live in it today, and how to make it better tomorrow.

Ron

Ron - Go to the Manual, it's all there. Have you ever tried? The greatest minds the world has known used the Bible as their guide.

RonH

While I disagree with just about everything you post, I always sincerely enjoy the forthrightness of your responses.

"Why would daddy government be interested whether I want to end it all or who helps me?"

Remember the Declaration idea that government exists to defend the interests of it's citizens - their rights and liberties, but also the general interests of the society as a whole, including its defense and perpetuation. We could say this is why government COERCES citizens not to kill each other, authorizing armed officers to enforce this rule with capital force. (Double standard here? Not with the singular goal of preventing rampant slaughter and civil unrest = chaos.)

So, the doctor should not assist his patients in killing themselves because this is harmful to society. It violates the entire patient-doctor relationship, which undermines public confidence in the medical institution, hindering the effectiveness of doctors to treat and cure conditions. It opens the door to fatal corruption, and also to increased suicides for arbitrary reasons. That is, legalizing PAS would (as with abortion) legitimize suicide, tacitly endorsing it as a viable option for dealing with varying life issues. And the corruption issue would pan out with death counseling like we've heard about in the current health care debate, with doctors encouraging patients to consent to death for "larger economic reasons."

You already believe in governmental coercion - we all do, assuming we don't want people taking away our lives and property. Even a true libertarian stance ('I have the right to do whatever I choose to myself') would not apply, since the doctor, in the course of his profession, would be authorized to participate. Even if you can legally pull the trigger on yourself, he cannot as a point of law steady your arm and squeeze the handle with you.

Sage,

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it and the response I get here in general. ;)

harmful to society...patient-doctor relationship...confidence in the medical institution...effectiveness of doctors...etc

Can you support any of these claims? In Oregon patients report peace of mind knowing they have the option though many don't use it. Look it up.

I'll only coerce you to restrain your arm if it threatens my nose.

RonH

Sage - Well done. I enjoyed reading your response.

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