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April 04, 2011


Would you say that believing "that" (Hebrews 11:6) necessarily precedes believing "in"?
James 2:17-20 is another passage that seems to show it is possible to believe "that" and still be lost.
I think a more important question is "What part does repentance play in "believing in"? Is repentance a gift of God like faith itself? (Eph. 2:8-10) I suspect there are a lot of people who can point to a time when they sincerely "believed in" Christ, but have shown little or no interest in or evidence of becoming a mature Christ-follower.

That's a good question. ((sorry if this is too long))

I'm not sure if "believe" means "trust" but I think it does and I think the saving-part has a kind of falling out, or down, or as CS Lewis says, giving up the spunge....coming to the end of one's self. In exhaustion, unable to do-it anymore, we fall...Catch me if you can God. And He does. Years later, looking back, I see it was Him draining me of my energy in the first place.

Coming to the end of the Self, and Falling Into --- Trusting --- that Other and Outer Self, which is Love Himself, I think is the sort of "trust" which defines the Net-Movement of Salvation. Repentance I think we just can't do-it that other way anymore.

I may be wrong about that, and about this next point: I'm not sure one can Intellectually Agree-With the Reality of God and merely as such know Him....Our Pathology, our Disease, is not one of Knowledge (we think that Tree is the way), rather, our Pathology is one of separation, or sin, or death, or love-less-ness. And, so, our Antidote cannot be Confirmed-Information, but must be, I feel, dry, exhausted, lifeless sand sucking up living water. I think Trust is the way, not Agreed-To-Information.

That is a very good point. Interesting in scripture though is that Jesus in several places (eg the parable of the sower) says that those who understand the message and put it into practice will be saved.
Even more interesting - as you say "it was Him draining me" is that in the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus doesn't say, "away, for you never knew me" but "I never knew you!"

It is He that knows us and saves us, not on our merit but His. But trusting that a lawyer can save us, and trusting a lawyer to save us are two different things. One is simply acknowledgment, the other means taking his advice.

yes you can be a beliver and not be born again, being born again has to do with seeing understanding and walking under gods goverment and rule the thief on the cross simply belived that jesus was the christ he never had a chance to perform any redeming acts jesus said you will be with me today in paradise.yes you can be belive in the work of christ death on the cross and never be an overcomer in this life. blessed are those who wash there robes that they may have the right to the tree of life and enter by the gates of the city.not everyone will.

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