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August 18, 2011

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This is clearly immoral, but nothing new for humanity. Because humans have delighted in their immorality since the fall, I would say, "what are we?", not, "what have we become?"

Ppr, there is a difference in the depths of evil to which we'll descend. Sure man has always been evil but there's something extra sick about murdering siblings because "you just want one".

The worst part is what she says here:

Eventually, she heard about Evans and flew to New York for the procedure. “I said, ‘You choose whoever is going to be safe and healthy,’ ” she says. “I didn’t give him any other criteria. I didn’t choose gender. None of that was up for grabs, because I had to make it as ethically O.K. for me as I could. But I wanted only one.”

This is clearly contradictory...

Aside from how obviously wrong this all is, I can't help but place myself in the shoes of the kid that lives. When he, or she, is lonely - or an only child - and wonders if his sibling would have been a good friend to spend a childhood with. My own brother (not a twin) has always been there for me. We've been each other's best men.

Then there's the big "what if" question: "What if I was the one who was killed? Would my own mother not weep for me or even remember my own short, silent life? How does she think about the brother or sister I never knew?" It places serious doubt in the relationship between a child and his mother. Can you imagine the guilt at having not been the one who was killed?

Finally, it sends a strange message to the surviving child: "I am arbitrarily worth more than other people." Try living your life with that conflicted notion.

Ppr, while this isn't new for humanity, it's shockingly new for our particular culture. A hundred years ago (or even less!), an article like this one would have been in a horror novel...and possibly shunned as too grotesque even then. So I was speaking in this particular sense rather than from the perspective of all humanity.

Al Mohler's take on it:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/08/17/this-isnt-meddling-its-murder/

My point is not that this isn't a horror. My point is it's yet another example of the depravity of man that goes back to the fall. Man isn't getting more depraved, he became totally depraved at the fall. China and other developing countries have been mass aborting for gender selection for some time. Again, I violently agree with the expressions of horror... this has been going on for some time and is not inconsistent with what we know about the human condition. At the same time we express our disgust, we should be sharpening our response to those like Peter Singer who argue that these actions are not immoral in any sense.

When you breed rodents, expect snakes looking for lunch. Am I the only one not surprised by this development? It is the land of opportunity, isn't it? Why is anyone surprised by opportunistic behavior in all its diverse forms? Expect more of it in many different twisted forms. I do and I will not be disappointed.

Yes Louis,

People are murdering their children because America is Capitalist. We get it...

Next topic...

Austin,

I understand your impulse to think that this is my position. I would likely make the same assumption in your shoes. Actually, the point was more along the lines that capitalism is not the cause of children being murdered, it merely facilitates the fallen human nature.

As does every institution and system devised by fallen man; witness the greater number of murdered children in non-capitalist countries.

If you are wondering, nobody ever expected the American form of government to work without faith. The ordered freedom does not exist without morality and morality requires belief, saith the Founders. It was not proposed that a form of government (much less an economic philosophy) would make man good. That kind of utopian dream belongs to other thinkers.

My wife and I have been struggling with unexplained infertility for 5 years and I cannot imagine the thought of reduction even entering our minds if we were blessed with triplets or twins. Would it be difficult? Yes! Would it be immoral to kill one or two to get "what we want"? YES!

I also could not believe the hypocrisy that this woman said she couldn't have an abortion because she had been trying for so long, but then jumped for joy when she was suddenly only pregnant with one child. How is what she did not an abortion?

Sick...

Regardless of what anyone thinks about abortion, there's this sentence in the article:

"She was 45 and pregnant after six years of fertility bills..."

People, the body was not meant to get pumped up with drugs, semen, or frozen humans in order to reproduce.

What sickens me is not that the secular world is ok with women taking technological leaps and bounds to invoke their "right" to bear children (at all costs).

I expect that from them.

Rather, what I find odd is that Christians are so blase about IVF and fertility treatments. There seems to be a lack of understanding about just how bizarre the world of infertility has become.

there are probably a couple hundred thousand frozen christian children in the USA alone.

If I was still Christian. I'd think that was pretty sick.

If I was still Christian. I'd think that was pretty sick.
We'd be in the same club, ToNy. Of course, when it is Christians saying IVF in itself is problematic (as I've argued on other boards) then, of course, the secularists charge that Christians are trying to impose their morality to interfere with other people's business.

Do you not think you'd be among the first to jump out and accuse the anti-science Christians of trying to interfere with the happiness of that poor 46 year old?
The issue presents some of the same problems as ESCR. Have you mentioned how this nauseates you?

Hey, Hey Tony

I finally agree with you!!!

:)

(actually, I've agreed with you before, but..)

Later,
Todd
(different Todd than the one above)

Daron
"As does every institution and system devised by fallen man; witness the greater number of murdered children in non-capitalist countries. "

You get it. That is exactly my point. That is why all this finger pointing combined with patting of self on the back for being better than "that other system" is so utterly pointless. We are all in the same sinking boat of humanity and the only thing that matters is that which the bible makes central that pulls us out of the water.

ToNy

"Rather, what I find odd is that Christians are so blase about IVF and fertility treatments. There seems to be a lack of understanding about just how bizarre the world of infertility has become."

Not all of us hold to that blase attitude. I, personally, think that IVF was the wrong road to go down. It presents too many problems that touch on my moral nerve. The alternative of adoption and revision to some of the legal wrangling over it would make it possible for infertile couples to have kids easier. I think that some mental fog regarding this issue is at least partly responsible for the choice of IVF over adoption.

Hi Louis,
I do get it. But I don't quite agree with you. Of two flawed systems, neither of which can save man, there is still a better choice and a worse choice.

Easy example. There are lots of corrupt police in a flawed system of law enforcement and having police won't perfectly protect everyone (even from the police themselves). But it is still better to have them than not. And it is better to enforce law (in general) than to break it.

Daron

I think what you are saying, and I actually agree with you, is that one shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. It is not a matter of what is to be done with a system or systems that bothers me, but this competitive and braggadocio claims being made about one or another when I clearly know that none on the list will pass God's muster. It isn't that I think that some kind of utopia is actually possible under present circumstances it is just that all this apparent pride and arrogance expressed through "my system beats your system" rubs me a bit the wrong way. I understand the need for some kind of system and it may be true that one is better than the other, but let the system speak for itself as it is put to practice. When someone sees a product doing what it is supposed to be doing, you don't need a salesman to convince you it is worth buying.

Attempts to persuade are not the same as pride, arrogance, and braggadocio. Arguing for what you believe to be true because you think everyone would be better off if you could convince them with enough evidence and arguments is not a bad thing. Otherwise, this whole site would be competitive pride and arrogance! And I know you don't think that. Why interpret such argument as pride and arrogance in the market arena but not in the arena of religion? You should offer the same benefit of the doubt to people who are arguing for all sorts of things they believe to be true.

Secondly, though you say discussing the system of government is pointless, you bring this issue up all the time--even when it's not related to the post. And I would actually appreciate it if you wouldn't do that because it distracts from the topic being discussed.

Amy
I appreciate your point of view. I simply prefer the unvarnished truth and that includes the fact that every system can carry with it seeds that result in promotion of things like the abhorrent practice of killing the unborn. If that means that I should take my share of responsibility by at least admitting the fact, I am willing to do that. Enough said.

Enough said.
Long ago.

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