I spit my drink out laughing when I read this piece from Al Stefanelli, the Georgia State Director for American Atheists:
It should come as no surprise that the individuals who abide by fundamentalist Christian and radical Islamic doctrines would be the first to cry out that they are being persecuted when their dangerous, damaging and disingenuous beliefs come under attack. Most of these people lack the maturity and intelligence to act in a socially acceptable manner. Many of them are sociopaths and quite a good number of them are psychopaths. All of them are clearly delusional....
Bigotry, discrimination, hatred, coercion, terrorism, slavery, misogyny and everything else that is part and parcel of fundamental Christianity and radical Islam should not be tolerated….
The fact is that fundamentalist Christians and radical Muslims are not interested in coexisting or getting along. They have no desire for peace. They do not want to sit down with us in diplomatic efforts to iron out our differences and come to an agreement on developing an integrated society.
They want us to die.
Their interpretation of the Bible and Koran are such that there is no other course of action but to kill the infidel, and if anyone believes otherwise they are only fooling themselves….
But the underbelly of fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islam does not operate in the legal system. They don’t respond to lawsuits, letters, amicus briefs or other grass-roots campaigns and they must, must, must be eradicated. As long as they are allowed to exist, we will continue to be inundated with accounts of buses, buildings, markets and abortion clinics being blown up, rape victims being murdered for adultery, wives being beaten (sometimes to death), airplanes being flown into buildings, people being tortured and sometimes beheaded for blasphemy, people being burned for witchcraft and sorcery and all the other horrific, inhumane and insane practices that are part of fundamental Christianity and Radical Islam.
Oh, those reasonable, loving atheists. But seriously, why do I post this? For two reasons. First, it can be wearing on us to constantly hear jabs at Christians, and it's easy to start believing maybe they're right about us being horrible human beings, or backward, or gullible. But then they tip their hand with something like this—something we know without a doubt to be false, and suddenly the truth becomes much more clear.
And second, I think one thing Stefanelli says here insightfully sums up a big reason why people do hate Christians and Christianity. It shows up in smaller ways with atheists, and more clearly in extreme, totalitarian regimes like the Soviet Union. It's this comment:
They don’t respond to lawsuits, letters, amicus briefs or other grass-roots campaigns and they must, must, must be eradicated.
The truth is, what has infuriated people about Christians throughout the centuries is that they can't get us to conform to them. From Shadrach, to Peter, to Richard Wurmbrand, no law, threat or torture can turn true Christians from loving and serving God or affirming what we know to be true. Because we believe in, and are accountable to, someone higher than human law and power, totalitarian leaders (like Stalin) recognize that Christians are a threat to them. And not because Christians are out to kill them, but because by their mere existence Christians threaten their power and plans.
The Soviets had their methods of breaking people and forcing them to conform to their ideas about a utopian society, and those methods worked for the most part. But what could they do with Christians who remained free from them, even through torture? Wurmbrand talks about the constant propaganda that was piped through the prisons: "Christianity is stupid! Christianity is stupid! Christianity is stupid! Give up! Give up! Give up!" Their inability to break Christians and bring them to their side was maddening.
Of course, I'm not at all saying that Stefanelli is a Stalin. I'm only saying this: When people who have strong ideas about how things ought to be discover they can't persuade us from God and His word, that is when they become desperate and hysterical with anger. So don't be surprised when it happens. Just take heart and remember that every time you endure such things, you are testifying to the truth and glory of the God of the Bible, who is worth more to you than the comfort of conforming.
[UPDATE: American Atheists removed the post from their site, but here is a PDF of the post, provided by Wintery Knight.]
When I read posts like this, I don't think of Evangelical Christians, mainline Protestants, etc. I think of groups like the Huttaree.
If those are the types of groups in view, then I have no objections to any of what is said here. I would love for those ways of thinking to be eradicated. They are, in my view, darkness that should be exposed by the light, to use some NT language.
I could be wrong about the target of this article, admittedly. That's just my reading of it.
Posted by: brgulker | September 20, 2011 at 07:02 AM
Okay, I've read the linked article twice now. I really don't see what STR is so upset about. I'll quote the best paragraph of the article, one that I completely support but was left out of STR's quotation:
Posted by: brgulker | September 20, 2011 at 07:42 AM
brgulker,
Where in the New Testament would anyone ever get the idea that "infidels are to be killed?"
Since that is what the author of the article has clearly and explicitly claimed, it is only naturally that it should be shown where or else he is wrong.
Posted by: Austin | September 20, 2011 at 08:22 AM
Just because Stefanelli is making up his own definitions ("Fundamentalism" actually means something and it has absolutely nothing to do with killing infidels) does not hide the fact that he is advocating killing people for their beliefs. Here he takes his cue from (now) Dr. Sam Harris.
Is STR "so upset"? Or Did Amy take this opportunity make a good point about why Christians are a threat - as light to those who hate the light - to some?brgulkler's sugar-coating of this and saying it is ways of thinking that need eradicating emphasizes the point, for when you can't change a person's mind but need to eradicate his ideas you have no choice but to eradicate him. Exactly Amy's point.
Posted by: Daron | September 20, 2011 at 08:25 AM
brgulker, you should read my first sentence again. I'm not upset, I actually laughed because I find it so absurd. "Fundamental Christianity" doesn't teach "there is no other course of action but to kill the infidel."
Posted by: Amy | September 20, 2011 at 08:30 AM
Great post, Amy.
Way to show those atheists - this is a great post to build bridges with them, and to show that they are wrong and we as Christians don't just attack those we disagree with.
Well done.
Posted by: James | September 20, 2011 at 08:46 AM
There's an important strategy to note and be prepared to defend against here. The strategy has been used since 9/11 by those who reject Christianity. The strategy is this:
Link Christianity to radical Islam, then blame Christianity for Islam's ills.
My first response to dialog like this is to point out Islam and Christianity are very different. That's a major mistake made in this passage, and poses a serious threat to the author's credibility.
Posted by: Ppr | September 20, 2011 at 09:13 AM
James--Interesting...you see this as an attack? That wasn't at all the spirit in which I wrote this. This is meant to relieve the tension that things like the article I linked to causes, and to encourage Christians to keep on in love, as Wurmbrand did. You can read the post I linked to in the last paragraph for more on that.
There's no sense pretending these things don't happen, and Christians are much less likely to be angry in return if they understand why.
Posted by: Amy | September 20, 2011 at 09:15 AM
bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
"The dictionary defines intolerance as lack of toleration, an unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect. Sometimes, though, it becomes quite necessary. Intolerance toward beliefs and doctrines that serve only to promote hatred, bigotry and discrimination should be lauded, as should extremist points of view toward the eradication of these beliefs and doctrines."
Someone help me with my philosophical terminology: is this a vicious infinite regress (aka suicide tactic)?
Posted by: Don | September 20, 2011 at 10:33 AM
brgulker-
Hutaree?
Really?
Please.
Historically, fundamentalism means belief in the following fundamentals (see how that works):
- The inspiration of the Bible and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
- The virgin birth of Christ.
- The belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin.
- The bodily resurrection of Christ.
- The historical reality of Christ's miracles.
Since I believe all of those things, I'm a fundamentalist. So, by the way, are John Warwick Montgomery, J.I. Packer and a lot of other good folks. (The only sticky wicket for any conservative believer is inerrancy...so if you're a conservative believer and you believe in inerrancy, then you're a fundie).Stefanelli was clearly trying to attack all of these people using a rather clumsy guilt-by-association attack.
What Stefanelli did was bury an obscure reference to the 'underbelly' of Fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islam that might allow him to say "Oh, I wasn't talking about J.I. Packer, the 2.4 million members of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod or any of those people. I was talking about Fred Phelps and his 77 family members and, 15 guys in Michigan with bad hygiene and weird Pokemon-sounding pseudo-military ranks."
Tell you what, from now on, I'm going to use the phrase "Strong Atheist" to refer to Ted Kaczynski's Freedom Club. I don't care how Dawkins* or other Atheists like to use that term....it refers to the Unabomber. I made one mistake though. I made it clear that that's what I was doing. So when I say that Strong Atheists are guilty of a string of bombing fatalities and injuries, you already know that I'm just talking about the Unabomber. So I've let the cat out of the bag. Stefanelli, rather hamfistedly, 'avoids' that.
Let us suppose what I think is untrue, that Stefanelli is just referring to Hutaree and Westboro Baptist 'Church'. The fact that, to describe that fringe, he uses a term that applies to millions of good American people is itself, dishonest and despicable, And it utterly beclowns him.
================================
*-Dawkins issues a set of logos ranging from "Strong Theist" to "Strong Atheist" that you can put on your web site. Maybe STR should, just for grins, get a "Strong Theist" logo.
Posted by: WisdomLover | September 20, 2011 at 12:16 PM
My thoughts almost exactly, WL. Right down to redefining "atheist" (rhetorically-speaking, of course) for maximum guilt-by-association.
Posted by: Daron | September 20, 2011 at 12:41 PM
You forgot to mention the name of the biggest nonconformist of them all.
Hint : It starts with the letter J. :-)
Posted by: Damian | September 20, 2011 at 01:23 PM
Good Grief.
They don't respond to letters, so they must must must be eradicated?
Maybe we should write a letter, and see if he desists. If not, can we eradicate him?
Posted by: Trent | September 20, 2011 at 02:35 PM
"beclowns"... he,he,he!
Posted by: Dwight | September 20, 2011 at 05:55 PM
Amy, you have a better sense of humor than I do, that's for sure!
This made me angry, especially the nonsense that Christianity and Islam are pretty much the same. If people wish to hate Christianity, fine. But to outright lie and claim that these two religions teach the same things is a low blow. Worse of all, it misleads people who may not know the facts.
But I did love your point that nothing can sway us, and how it drives them nuts. I'd never thought about it that way.
Posted by: Mo | September 20, 2011 at 07:54 PM
The irony of all this pontificating about Christians being unwilling to reason or even engage in discussion is that while we speak all the evangelistic Atheists are doing all they can to run from WLC and his visit there next month.
Posted by: Ryan K. | September 20, 2011 at 09:06 PM
Just don't call strong atheists fundamentalist atheists.
It confuses them.
Posted by: Trent | September 21, 2011 at 03:19 AM
Based on the popular media representation of right wing Palinesque Christianity, essentially the "American Taliban", it would seem fully justifiable to link these with radical Islam, even though they are at war with each other.
I suppose as a Christian, my ace in the hole would be especially the Mennonites and then the Amish who by their witness, remove all supports from the atheist's charge.
Posted by: dave | September 21, 2011 at 05:05 AM
That's the problem when people get their information from pop media; they end up believing easily-digested myths like 'the church has always resisted scientific knowledge', 'people thought the Earth was flat in Columbus' day', 'there was no innovation or learning during the Middle Ages', 'religion is the cause of most wars', etc.
Ideas that are passed on gleefully even though a few moments thought would be enough to dispel them.
Posted by: Daron | September 21, 2011 at 08:34 AM
Since Atheists have no inherent beliefs, it is impossible to be fundamentalist. The term is either a lack of understanding (ie sloppy thinking) or an intentional false statement to act as an insult.
As for the WLC debate, the issue is the style. WLC's style does not promote a search for truth, but merely repeating of well practiced monologues.
Posted by: Alex | September 21, 2011 at 08:53 AM
The problem with WLC's debates lies in his recent partners. They do not want to search for the truth or answer the logical problems presented to them. Rather, they want to fold their arms, roll their eyes, and entertain the faithful with long strings of venomous denunciations against God. Although this elicits loud applause from their cheerleaders it does nothing to establish their credentials as reasonable thinkers. Nor does the strategy shake Craig off-topic. As they fail to infuriate him, and as even some of their own fans see their failures, they are realizing the wisdom of avoiding such a meeting.
Simply put, they just don't have the answers.
Posted by: Daron | September 21, 2011 at 09:21 AM
Alex,
You may call them monologues if you wish, but WLC presents premises that lead to conclusions. Attack his premises. Refute his conclusions. But please don't think by calling them monologues you can ignore their substance. Atheists and Christians alike agreed that Craig soundly defeated Hitchens and Harris. I fear that is why Dawkins is running scared.
Posted by: Ppr | September 21, 2011 at 10:52 AM
"Since Atheists have no inherent beliefs, it is impossible to be fundamentalist."
Do atheists believe that they lack a belief in God? Could one say "I'm an atheist, but I have no opinion about whether I believe in God"?
Do atheists believe that the existence of God has not been proven to them? Could one say: "I'm an atheist, but I have no opinion about whether I've ever seen a good proof for existence of God"?
Atheism must involve certain beliefs, otherwise it wouldn't be an -ism.
Now, if you follow the pattern of Christian fundamentalism, it seems to be talking about more than a core of belief common to all people who consider themselves Christian. It's not about beliefs inherent to Christianity. As I noted, not every Christian, not even every conservative Christian, believes in inerrancy. And many people who consider themselves Christian have quibbles about one or more of the other four 'fundamentals'. So Christian fundamentalism seems to involve a certain set of beliefs that its adherents think essential to a full-bodied Christianity.
For atheists, there seems to be at least one such belief (#7 on the Dawkins scale):
Dawkins seems to think that holding this belief does qualify an individual as a more full-bodied atheist than, say, someone who's at level 5 on the Dawkins scale: After all, he calls the former a strong atheist, and the latter a weak atheist. He's not using the terms to insult weak atheists or exalt strong atheists. He just means that the strong atheist has the more full-bodied view. And he's obviously right about this.Stefanelli is a Strong Atheist. Here, for example, is part of his 'testimony':
It sounds to me like he's pretty sure that there is no God. He's a strong atheist.I'm guessing Dawkins is too. If the most doubt about the claim that God does not exist that he can muster up is that God's existence is on the same level as the flying spaghetti monster, then I 'd say that he's pretty sure that there is no God. Again, he's a strong atheist.
Now, it seems that we may fairly call strong theists adherents to Atheistic Fundamentalistism. They are the most full-bodied variety of atheist.
And the irony has escaped no one that Stefanelli seems to like the idea of eradicating his opposition as much as he claims fundamentalist Christians "want us to die." (Though, of course, fundamentalist Christians do not want their opposition to die.)
Stefanelli seems to have realized that he let the mask slip a bit too much. At the linked article, he's added a codicil that says that he was saying that the doctrines need to be eradicated, not the people.
This seems to suggest that his original text... ...actually says that that he's not calling for the eradication of fundamentalists (those of the 'underbelly'), but only their ideas.He does not say that he mangled what he wanted to say so that he seemed, contrary to intention, to be calling for the eradication of people. Stylistically, it is a pretty bad bit of writing (not that I'm claiming to be Hemingway), so I would completely take him at his word if that's what he said. But instead, he seems to be suggesting that the clear intent of his words is that the ideas are to be eradicated. You can decide for yourself whether you think this is true or not.
You can also decide whether you think he's really gotten any death threats...I know that the WWW is big, and lots of people of varying levels of sanity participate, but I'm calling baloney on that. I doubt that he's gotten any (unless yoy count something like Trent's joke a few posts up as a death threat).
Posted by: WisdomLover | September 21, 2011 at 12:00 PM
Minor correction: I went looking for the Dawkins belief scale logo on Stefanelli's web site. I was surprised not to find it there. I was doubly surprised not to find it on Dawkins' own site. (Not the Level 7 logo, no logo at all.)
It was only then that I realized that, although Dawkins invented the belief scale (1-7), he's not the one offering the web site logos. Those badges are from Christopher Sisk and are available here, sorry about the mix-up.
Posted by: WisdomLover | September 21, 2011 at 12:03 PM
Atheists (the people) DO have beliefs. We all do.
Posted by: SteveK | September 21, 2011 at 01:39 PM
It does occur to me that Stefanelli's article is rife with allusions to "them" when discussing removal of the threat. I think it possible that WL is correct in suggesting that it's just a case of bad writing. I also think it slightly more than just as likely that it's a Freudian slip. I will note that this type of slip is not unique to atheists. I have often had to interject with weak theist, and strong but unthinking theist acquaintances the necessity of always monitoring your thought and speech to train yourself to separate people from their ideas. I still slip occasionally when I'm tired or particularly angry. However, a worldview that holds one to be accountable after death to an other so removed in intellect, and more importantly Holiness as to be alien to us, does make me more inclined to love my enemies at least far enough to find the notion of "eradicating" them wholesale just for their ideas is repugnant. I am highly unconvinced that such a reflex is native to a strong worldview that fundamentaly holds people to be nothing more than clever animals and morals to be relative.
But, I also know that it is often characteristic of humans to be most emphatically hostile to things that they themselves most deeply and secretly are guilty of; I wonder how many of the most hostile anti-theists are trying to wipe out god by denying him so strongly. Taking Jonah one better - not trying to hide from God, but trying to bury him so they don't have to answer to him.
I am willing to believe S doesn't advocate actual eradication of the people. But I think he's trying real hard to dig a hole.
Posted by: Dwight | September 21, 2011 at 01:51 PM
Atheists know they lack belief in God, so belief is not needed.
Posted by: Alex | September 21, 2011 at 04:31 PM
Alex:
You're on thin ice. Let me support my claim:
I. You have premises (that you haven't shared with us) leading to your conclusion, claim, belief, view (call it what you want) that you lack of evidence for the existence of God. Your claim and the premises supporting it are subject to verification and are either true or false.
"I lack evidence for a belief in God" is a verifiable claim about the existence/nonexistence of evidence for a deity.
II. Atheism:
(1) is a claim about knowledge
(2) is a view
(3) is a position
(4) is different from agosticism
(5) is more than a description of a psychological state
(6) requires justification in the form of evidence or argument
(7) is the position that there is no God (as opposed to the absence in a belief in God)
(8) is either true or false.
III. In the face of
a) the Cosmological argument for the existence of God
b) the moral argument for for the existence of God
c) the teleological argument for the existence of God
d) The historical evidence supporting the existence of Jesus
e) The archeological evidence supporting the existence of biblical events
f) other arguments and evidences
you *claim* no evidence.
You must have done a lot of homework to arrive at this conclusion my friend!
Thoughts?
Posted by: Jim Jones | September 21, 2011 at 04:59 PM
Let's be serious here, folk. Stefanelli wasn't talking to Christians of any ilk. He wasn't really even talking to atheists. He was trying to incite them. This is propaganda, nothing more.
Posted by: James | September 21, 2011 at 05:38 PM
James - I'm trying to understand your point.
What do we do with your conclusion, "this is just propaganda intended to incite atheists"
It seems you would have us ignore it.
Many on this thread are attempting to dispel it.
As Paul says in 2 Cor 10:3-5, "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
Does ignoring this propaganda further Paul's charge?
I'd prefer to be prepared to answer this propaganda in a knowledgeable and winsome fashion the next time I encounter it on campus, or increasingly (and unfortunately), at church.
You seem to be advocating for ignorance and denial.
Can you help me understand where I've misunderstood the message behind your posts on this thread?
Posted by: Alvin Fortinbras | September 21, 2011 at 06:22 PM
Jim,
For no reason in particular, your comment about evidence reminded me of our legal system.
When selecting a jury the judge says, rather emphatically, that we don't know if the defendant is innocent or guilty because we haven't heard the evidence yet.
That's not entirely true. If there's ZERO evidence against the defendant, then why is the legal system taking the case? There's also zero evidence against everyone else in the court room. Does it make sense to put everyone on trial simply because someone accuses them of a crime?
Of course not, because the truth is there IS evidence suggesting that the defendant is guilty. It's not proof of guilt, but it's evidence suggesting guilt. That's why the defendant is on trial, and other suspects are not.
The same reasoning can be used when discussing God. There is evidence suggesting that God exists - historical and otherwise. Some atheists say there is none and that is clearly false.
Posted by: SteveK | September 21, 2011 at 07:27 PM
Alex--when you say atheists lack beliefs, how would you define 'belief'?
Posted by: Jesse | September 22, 2011 at 05:15 AM
SteveK
"Does it make sense to put everyone on trial simply because someone accuses them of a crime?
Of course not, because the truth is there IS evidence suggesting that the defendant is guilty. It's not proof of guilt, but it's evidence suggesting guilt. That's why the defendant is on trial, and other suspects are not."
Obviously you have no real experience with our legal system. Your statement doesn't reflect the present reality.
Posted by: Jeff | September 22, 2011 at 05:16 AM
Jeff,
Mostly it does reflect reality. For the vast majority of defendants there are reasons why the defendant is on trial and you are not. Circumstantial reasons perhaps, but reasons that go beyond being accused of the crime.
If there were no reasons outside of the accusation itself then most legal systems, especially the prosecution, would not see any merit in taking the case.
Posted by: SteveK | September 22, 2011 at 07:59 AM
SteveK
Sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about.
I really wish your view was true.
Once the self perpetuating legal gears start turning, it becomes about who has money and not about truth or justice or right and wrong.
I hope you never have to find this out firsthand. It isn't pleasant.
Posted by: Jeff | September 22, 2011 at 03:08 PM
So you're telling me that if you ask the prosecutor or the judge, "Why is the defendant going to trial rather than the bailiff or me or YOU?", that neither will be able to give you a legitmate reason because it's all about money?
I think you don't know what you are talking about, Jeff.
Posted by: SteveK | September 22, 2011 at 03:20 PM
Jeff,
The real point of my comment is this: the atheists are wrong.
There are valid reasons for thinking a particular God exists rather than some other god just as there are valid reasons for thinking a particular person committed a crime rather than some other person.
Posted by: SteveK | September 22, 2011 at 03:42 PM
Nice dialogue style once again, Jeff. And somehow you find that other Christians aren't as polite with you as they could be.
And I don't even think SteveK is a Calvinist.
Posted by: Daron | September 22, 2011 at 07:57 PM
Would that make me impolite or just wrong?
Posted by: SteveK | September 22, 2011 at 10:31 PM
Belief is accepting something as being true that evidence would convince anyone with a reasonable intelligence is obviously false.
Posted by: Alex | September 23, 2011 at 03:47 AM
That's a very different definition of belief than what I, and many Christians here hold to.
Posted by: Jesse | September 23, 2011 at 05:19 AM
I realize it's a common notion that beliefs are things held in spite of the evidence, but where did this idea even come from?
Posted by: Jesse | September 23, 2011 at 06:04 AM
Alex-
You said:
What does "convince" mean? Random House says this: Of the four results of convincing mentioned, only two have to do with attitudes regarding truth: belief and agreement. Belief is unambiguously an attitude regarding truth. Agreement is about truth only if "agree" means "harmonize in belief or opinion." Otherwise, it means the same as giving consent. Which does not have to do with truth, but with the permission to act.So the reasonable person you mention is moved by the evidence to believe, possibly to believe in harmony with the person who gives the evidence, that some claim is false.
Suppose that I gave you a proof for some simple mathematical truth. Say that 1.0 is exactly equal to 0.999... (where the 9s go on without stop). Would it make any sense to respond as follows? "Well WL, you've proven it to me, and I agree with you that 1.0=0.999..., but I don't believe it!"
No.
What you say is that you believe it because I've proven it to you. That's what it means to agree with me.
The standard definition of "knowledge" is "justified, warranted or proven true belief". So every instance of something one knows is an instance of something one believes.
Posted by: WisdomLover | September 23, 2011 at 07:38 AM
Suppose that I gave you a proof for some simple mathematical truth. Say that 1.0 is exactly equal to 0.999... (where the 9s go on without stop). Would it make any sense to respond as follows? "Well WL, you've proven it to me, and I agree with you that 1.0=0.999..., but I don't believe it!"
-----------
So you accept Zeno's paradox and believe you can never reach your destination?
An atheist is merely someone who does not accept existence of a god there has never been any proof for. I might as well believe Battlestar Galactica actually happened. Just as much evidence.
Posted by: Alex | September 23, 2011 at 12:48 PM
SteveK,
I didn't think you were impolite. Wasn't the least bit put off by what you wrote. I really don't know what Daron was talking about.
We agree about atheists, just not about our legal system. But, I get your point.
Posted by: Jeff | September 23, 2011 at 01:39 PM
I guess, Alex, the next question would be.....
What would you accept as proof that God exists?
Posted by: Jeff | September 23, 2011 at 01:55 PM
I was joking around with Daron, Jeff. No worries.
Posted by: SteveK | September 23, 2011 at 02:04 PM
What...
Wait....
Battlestar DIDN'T HAPPEN??????
Posted by: Jeff | September 23, 2011 at 02:04 PM
Alex,
"Belief is accepting something as being true that evidence would convince anyone with a reasonable intelligence is obviously false."
Do you believe that?
Posted by: Louis Kuhelj | September 23, 2011 at 04:25 PM
The way Christians define God, there can be no proof for something that isn't composed of anything in the universe.
You've defined yourself out of providing scientific proof.
Posted by: Alex | September 23, 2011 at 04:32 PM