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« Did God Choose Us before We Repented? | Main | Why Tax Exemptions for Religious Institutions Should Continue »

June 30, 2015

Comments

WL,

I don't think that the great commission is an impossible task, or that we are any worse then people were when that command was given.

Totally agree that telling people what to do isn't very effective. Telling them how to do it, coming alongside people to help them do the right thing, and teaching how to become the kind of person who naturally does the right thing....

Well, that is a different story. That CAN be done, and is being done now.

Have a great holiday.

The moral of the story:

There aren't many Christians as good as Goat Head 5.

You still haven't answered my question.

What do you mean I haven’t answered your question?

This question:

And don't you believe that the elect can sin at will because, well, grace?

I more than answered it. Actually, I got you to answer your own question. You answered that people do sin at will (including you) and also fall under God’s grace.

What else would you like to know?

Now, can Christians sin without a care in the world? Of course not.

These unicorn Christians that you refer to that just don't give a damn about God's Word and just go on sinning. Yeah, that'd be a problem. I still have yet to meet one of those Christians.

It looks like that doesn't matter to you though. You believe it helps make your point. But you have no point.

Reading over all the comments at once gives one an incredible perspective.

Anon,

Could you share what you learned?

"I don't think that the great commission is an impossible task, or that we are any worse then people were when that command was given."

I agree. We're not any better either. And those first disciples weren't so great, being broken old sinners every one of them.

"telling people what to do isn't very effective. Telling them how to do it, coming alongside people to help them do the right thing, and teaching how to become the kind of person who naturally does the right thing....

Well, that is a different story."

I don't think that story is all that different. People generally know how to do things too. And even if someone does manage to limp forward to do something right, it's usually at the expense of doing something else wrong.

It’s a stark difference in the view of humanity. Our nature. Our state.

Take Goat Head 5’s comment:

…become the kind of person who naturally does the right thing

Emphasis mine.

Naturally? When you really get down to it, and pull out the microscope on our lives, what do we naturally do? Me? I’m inclined to pat myself on the back when I do something right. I try to resist the urge, but it feels unnatural to resist. One tends put a figurative check mark in the win column. On the other hand, the natural thing, can be very problematic for the soul.

NOW

Compare that to Wisdom Lover’s comment:

And those first disciples weren't so great, being broken old sinners every one of them.

Followers of Christ and martyrs - weren't so great? Judging by Goat Head 5’s standards they would classify as extra great.

So which is it?

The answer: They were not so great.

Christ was great.

What does that tell us?

KWM-

"Judging by Goat Head 5’s standards they would classify as extra great."

In fairness to GH5, he did say this:

"I don't think that the great commission is an impossible task, or that we are any worse than people were when that command was given."

If we're not so great, then the people who received the great commission weren't so great either...because we're not worse than them.

Of course, there's another way that could go...If the original disciples were extra great...GH5's remark implies something about us...because we're not worse than them.

I naturally love, adore, delight in my wife. Happily even. To my own hurt, even.


Does "that" ipso facto make my selfishness non-existent?


No.


In the same way, my selfishness does not just "ipso facto" make my love "non-existent".


If we tell our children that, "Well, really, truely, daddy hates you, and nothing in daddy love's you, adores you, not *really*, and nothing in us cares for you, not *really*..." and so on, then we are lying to them, or, we are far from the average parent, both Christian and Non-Christian.


Calling Evil Good and calling Good Evil isn't the solution.


Hebrews 11 tells us that Faith in God exists in the Old Man.


Just like: selfless love can and has, and does, carry Non-Christian husbands or parents to risk life for their beloved.... and they tell us what we already know - it wasn't a "hard" thing, for they *delight* in that child, or what have you.


It's an old story.


Just as, our sin, our privation, is an old story.


Total Depravity of the sort which says to our child that we don't *really* care for you, at all, ever, not *really*, and so on, isn't the actual state of affairs, and never has been.


Now, Faith, *real* Faith in God, there in the Old Man, Hebrews 11, does not ipso facto make that Old Man's privation, sin, non-existent. Just as, the sin there in Hebrews 11 does not ipso facto make their Faith in God non-existent.


That's a *real* problem for *real* Faith, for it shows us that *real* Faith in God is both Good and Insufficient.


But how can Good be Insufficient?


The Last Adam is sinless, and yet, lest the Self be filled, lest the Other pour out to thusly fill that Self....... Now, Man's landscape, his reality, is not entirely unlike Trinity in that regard.


Unless and untill said Self/Other constitute Trinity's unique sort of, Trinity's unique flavor of, the singular Us, the Whole cannot be actualized.


In all possible worlds it is the case that *ANY* Good that is a Created Something, such as Man, even if sinless, from the get-go just is contingent, just ipso facto sums to Insufficient - by its very *nature* it (literally) *cannot* sum to a stand-alone Good.


Impossible.


Unless:


God, The Necessary, must spread His arms wide, must pour Himself out, must fill the created/contingent, must become the all in all.


Only thereby does an *unavoidable* problem - necessarily found in all possible worlds - find an *unavoidable* solution - in all possible worlds.


Man, literally, "cannot not" run face-first into Reality. Regardless of his choices, regardless of his worlds. Because Reality is always Reality. In all possible worlds.


Christ reveals the Necessary, the fundamental, factual shape of Reality. In fact, if you want to know what Actuality *looks like*, you need only look on Christ.

Clarification,

The above was not speaking on the incoherent idea of universalism. That idea denies the fundamental topography of Trinity and is, therefore, nonsense.

Wisdom Lover,

I appreciate that. However, I don’t think that’s what Goat Head 5 meant. I think he believes there are plenty (though not enough) of Christians walking around doing the right thing naturally.

But, Goat Head 5 can speak for himself (herself?)


Non-Christian parents naturally care for, even die for, their child. In fact, for some it doesn't even feel like a choice to get on the operating room table, regardless of the risk - they are even *eager* to get on with it - for their beloved.

And yet, as an observation, none of that solves the unsolvable problem of the Naturalist's unavoidably arbitrary (evolutionary) morality. Only in the Necessary Being does Reason spy love's categorical paradigm there at the end of Contingency's line. Hence the Christian need not fear Faith in the Old Man, which Scripture affirms, nor must he fear the natural or true ends of Man as we spy Man inside of his privation.

Goat Head 5,

Reading the recent comments, I should not have written what I did on July 2 at 4:33

I’m sorry for that.

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