Did God Choose Us before We Repented?

Greg explains how God's choice and our repentance work together.

Comments

[Drew Hymer]

the video is private.

[Ellen Jervis]

Isn't the Reform view that God chose "some" and it's that word "some" that is that is the argumentative issue between Reformed and Arminian camps?

[dave]

Re: Ellen,

I used to be an Arminian. Ironically, I was in a church service when the teacher began teaching against a main Calvinistic Doctrine. I had never before heard such a thing. But for the short version, I arrived at that service an Arminian and went home a Calvinist, and remain so today as far as Sin and Grace is concerned.

It is an important study. Rather than try to point out the differences here, please search out Arminianism VS Calvinism and be patient. They are two totally different religions in my opinion.

[Goat Head 5]

Greg is being a bit coy here.

LARGE disagreement between Calvinism and the rest of the Church on what God "choosing" means. Let's not pretend that Calvinists and all other Christians mean the same thing when they say God chooses people who are saved.

I agree with Dave, the gulf is vast between Calvinism and the rest of the Church.

Goat Head 5

[WisdomLover]

Did God chooses us before we repented?

God created time.

What does "before" mean?

[Goat Head 5]

WL,

Why do you think God created time?

[scbrownlhrm]

Time seems contingent. That is to say, it is not at all obvious that temporal becoming exists in God. First/Last emerges in that which is, not Necessary, but contingent.

Trinity reveals love's ceaseless reciprocity, and love's filiation, and Logos amid Transposition, and so on, and all are without First, without Last, void of becoming. Even void of Cause/Effect.

We expect that, of course, as the reality that God is both "Being Itself" and that God is, vis-a-vis Trinity, "Personal", and so on, and so on, finds no need of such contingent contours.

[WisdomLover]

GH5-

Why do you think He didn't?

[WisdomLover]

Still wondering why you think God didn't create everything GH5?

[WisdomLover]

Well, unless and until GH5 gives us a reason for thinking that a being can fail to be the All-Creator and still be God, let's assume God created time.

So what does "before" mean. In the phrase "before the foundations of the world" it's clear enough what it means. It means the same as "Before the beginning of time."

Obviously, this does not mean that what happened before the beginning of time is somehow temporally prior to the beginning of time. That's just contradiction. "Before the foundations of the world", "before the beginning of time" and all similar locutions simply mean "In God's timeless reality." What else could they mean?

When did God choose us?

There can only be one answer...in His timeless reality.

Does that mean that is is metaphysically impossible for us to repent freely?

Only if you think that the basis of God's choice in His timeless reality cannot be an event in time.

But I see no reason at all to think that that is so.

God sees all of time, all of every possible time, all at once in His timeless reality. He may well chose to create this temporal order rather than any other on the basis of what He sees in this temporal order that distinguishes it from all the others. Indeed, what other reason do you think He might have for choosing this temporal order over all the others?

And because of that, our repentance is as metaphysically free as you like...in spite of being chosen by God 'before the foundation of the world'.