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« Hearing from God and Hearing from God's Word | Main | How Can We Answer People Who Say We’re Intolerant? »

July 08, 2016


Scripture tells us to pray for leaders so that we can lead a quiet and peaceful life. And this must be possible having been told to do so.

I know there is a deep disrespect for many in authority and their Laws against common sense morality. It is as though a supernatural hardening like Pharaoh's is taking place. But all the more reason to pray that God would stay his wrath upon these for the sake of the church.

I really appreciate your spirit and your keen insight, Ms. Hall. Thank you for this.

Our country deserves nothing but judgment.

Collective punishment. Nice.

But all the more reason to pray that God would stay his wrath upon these for the sake of the church.

Real nice.

RonH: God's judgment based on the guilt of the nation is a significant theme of the Old Testament. Justice toward the guilty collective can be (but is not guaranteed to be) withheld for the sake of a righteous minority.


Guilt of the nation.

Do you think that's a thing?
Is that a thing?

amy--you say our country is is trouble-really??.things have never been perfect, the whole world has never been perfect, and never will be. you are saying the same thing people have been saying for years and years and years. is our society any worse now than at any otherm time in history??????


Many liberal atheists seem to think that there is such a thing as collective guilt. For instance, they tend to believe in a collective white guilt when it comes to black reparations and a collective American guilt when it comes to Native Americans etc.

Can you see how your shallow replies might be frustrating to dialogue? You seem to have a hard time stringing sentences together in a way that would construct an actual objection. Instead you're consistently content to act incredulous. As if "Real nice" is supposed to serve as some substantive critique that we have to answer.

Instead of vague hinting at some problem you have with the Christian worldview, why not just lay out an actual objection like this:

"There is no such thing as national guilt because... And when my fellow liberals appeal to it in regards to .... they are wrong because ....."

There. I've given you a big head start by providing you with a nice fill-in-the-blank template.

What have 'liberal atheists' got to do with it?

How do you know I agree that reparations should be paid to descendents of slaves or to Native Americans?

"Real nice" is a short way of saying "not winsome" and STR frequently claims to train you to be winsome.

Though I was 'vague', you seem to have understood me.

You suggest I lay out my critique differently.

I'll lay it out as I please.

Contemplate collective punishment.

Collective punishment, Prayer, and how it works.

What exactly does Jesus save people from?

People normally say something like; he saves us from our sins so we can go to Heaven when we die.

But the root of the matter is, he saves us from God. Saying Jesus saves us from our sins is another way of saying that by nullifying our sins in a way acceptable to God, he saves us from God, and his righteous uncompromising wrath.

So all nations are under God's wrath. But in his love for the Church, God causes nations and bad people to do "good" things and prosper, causing a "spill over effect" for the sake of the Church.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

Mike Miller,

You seem to be skeptical that our country is in trouble because (1) things have never been perfect and because (2) our society is no worse now than any society has ever been.

Regarding your first reason: It would seem that no society could ever be in trouble since it will always be the case that no society is perfect. In other words, no matter how bad things get in a society (total anarchy, marshal law, etc) we can say that we must not be in trouble, because no society is perfect. Clearly that method of reasoning is fallacious. So that leaves us with your second reason.

Regarding your second reason: whether or not our country is worse off than any other time in history is irrelevant. No one has said, for instance, that American society right now is worse off than Nazi German society in 1940. And in order for our country to be in trouble it is not required that the society be worse off than any other society in history. So I agree with you that our society, as it currently stands, is not necessarily any worse off than other societies have been. But it simply doesn't follow that, therefore, our society is not in trouble.


You act as though I'm being unreasonable to suggest you lay out your "critique differently". But I didn't just say that you should lay out your critique "differently" rather I was much more specific.

I said that you should lay out *arguments* for the criticisms you vague gesture at instead of simply emoting your incredulity.

Of course if you prefer to simply emote and assert incredulity you are free to do so... But then your presence here is a bit baffling since such behavior can be just as effective in front of your bedroom mirror as in a public forum.

Make Fascism Great Again, 2016,

[Ron's comments] can be just as effective in front of [his] bedroom mirror as in a public forum.

So you say.

^ case in point.

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