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November 05, 2007

Comments

Thank you for posting your comments on this article Steve. I agree that "religious people" as seen as a homogeneous group have no special status as far as abortion arguments go. (Although the case could be made that, as per the moral argument, if God does not exist then there are no moral absolutes, and therefore ... etc)

It sounds like Wills' argument boils down to "Who's to say?" Here's what Greg has to say [grins] about this: 'The answer to the question "Who's to say?" is "We are the ones to say. We are to look at the evidence, weigh it and draw reasonable conclusions based on what we know, not on what we don't know."'
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5649

As a second free plug for STR (I won the Frapper free book recently so it's payback time!) I wholeheartedly recommend Scott Klusendorf's short book "Pro-Life 101", $7 at STR's store, it's a short & easy read but extremely well written and well worth the price. Re the "we don't know when life begins" objection, besides being a false claim, even if this claim were true, says Klusendorf: "If no one knows when life begins, we should not kill the unborn because we may be taking human life."

Who is to decide?

God is to decide, that's who.

What I say about abortion (or many other matters) is irrelevant. But if I tell you what God has to say about it that is a different thing altogether.

Of course, there are those who deny that God gets a vote, or that there is a God to vote. The arguments listed in the original post might be valuable in discussing abortion with these people.

But among people who believe in God, the debate should be framed in these terms: What does God say?

You gotta love the fact that this character uses "religeous" philosophers to bolster his point at the same time he denies religeous input that harms his case. Aquinas is a heavyweight, not to be dismissed quickly, but that isn't the point. The point is that Willis thinks nothing of having his cake and eating it too by using a religeous authority while denying religeous authority.
What's up with that?

Brad

"I take a different tact: if adults deserve equal treatment, then there must be something truly the same about them. As it turns out, there is only one thing we all share: we all have a human nature that demands we be treated equally, that we be taken seriously. But we have our nature from the moment we begin to exist, which means we had that same human nature as toddlers, infants, embryos, and zygotes."

Then all abortions are either first degree murder, second degree murder or voluntary manslaughter.

Question: Abortion is now a capital crime (as it should be, as the Due Process and Equal Protection provisions of the Constitution now apply from conception). Abortion is still legal in countries like Canada and the U.K. If I left the country with a child and returned alone, at some point questions will be asked. If the fertilized egg is entitled to SP and DP then shouldn't all females of child bearing age be required to take a pregnancy test on leaving and entering the country? For that matter shouldn't all FoCBA be required to take a monthly pregnancy test? Seems reasonable to me. How serious are you all about protecting the unborn?

As our friend Doug reminded us in a below thread, socialism and Communism have beautiful ideals and are a bad dream in the case of the former and a nightmare in the case of the latter when actually implemented.

Once we get into actually creating laws and policy, where does all this go? How do you write an abortion law that isn't either class based or totalitarian? All I see from you all are beautiful words - just like we get from our Communist and socialist friends.

"If the fertilized egg is entitled to SP and DP then shouldn't all females of child bearing age be required to take a pregnancy test on leaving and entering the country? For that matter shouldn't all FoCBA be required to take a monthly pregnancy test? Seems reasonable to me. How serious are you all about protecting the unborn?"

Alan, you are missing the fundamental point - if the fetus is a human being, then abortion is illegal. No, you don't have to have a pregnancy test for each fertile woman entering/leaving the country. Just as you don't check if each parent came back with their children or decided to kill them enroute to help with financial burdens. If the US bans abortion, I'll take that happily knowing that some women will still go abroad to have their children dismembered and their heads crushed. If the ban in the US saves 90% of embryos, I'll take that.

"Alan, you are missing the fundamental point - if the fetus is a human being, then abortion is illegal."

Hi Karthik, actually that was my point as covering humans from conception on under the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the Constitution would clearly remove abortion as a separate crime, the unborn then being covered under the murder statutes.

"Just as you don't check if each parent came back with their children..."

That is only because that doesn't seem to happen all that much. If, in fact, that happened, there would, at some point, be some questions asked. Also, if this became a problem, we can be sure that ICE would start keeping track of how many in a family left and how many came back.

This wouldn't be our call, of course. Born children are fairly obvious things. The unborn aren't, yet they would be entitled to Equal Protection under our laws. If there is a means whereby the presence of a person needing protection may be made known, and there is a reasonable likelihood that that person remaining unknown puts his life in danger, that person has a right to have those means utilized in order to effect his protection. The courts would ultimately decide the issue.

As a Catholic I must note that Gary Wills has been and continues to be an embarrassment to the Catholic faith and Christianity in general. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a man who claims the faith as his own while simultaneously watering it down with heresies, falsehoods, and relativistic nonsense that does nothing but injure the mission of the Church on earth and the salvation of souls. He is in need of our prayers.

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